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Messages - Pyrrhus

#1
List Queries / Re: Early Vandals
January 18, 2023, 06:03:04 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, Richard.

My initial query arose while reading Ilkka Syvanne's first volume in his multi volume series on the Late Roman Army. While discussing Rome's various opponents he postulates that the Vandals had become mounted warriors as a result of their exposure to the Sarmatians. In terms of fighting style, Syvanne interprets the Vandal as shieldless using the lance (contus) in a two handed fashion. He concedes the possibility that they fought in "German" style charging with a long spear and carrying a shield. He does not provide a source for these conclusions. Hence my query.

However, my interest was piqued and I have done a little research. Roman Zavroff's article in Collegium Medievale 2017, The Vandals and Sarmatians in a New Perspective is a very interesting read. He provides a thorough review of the literary and archaeological evidence to support his hypothesis that by the mid 2nd century Sarmatization of the Vandals had begun and that by the mid 4th century and the time of more frequent contact with the Romans the Vandals were a predominantly mounted force fighting in the Sarmatian style and little distinguishable from the Sarmatians.

Richard, Prof. Zavroff would take issue with a number of your comments. With respect to the region inhabited by the Vandals, they settled in the Carpathian basin which includes both the Great and Lesser Hungarian Plains. Their neighbours were the powerful Sarmatian Iazyges augmented in the 3rd century by waves of Alans. This is perfect cavalry country and provided some of Europe's finest cavalry for centuries. I would be more surprised if the Vandals didn't Sarmaticize and adopt the horse in those circumstances.

Further, he argues the archaeological evidences supports an economic transition from farming to animal husbandry beginning in the mid 2nd century, likely as a result of the close contact with the Sarmatian peoples.

I am unaware of any source/authority for the claim that immediately prior to 406 the Vandals were primarily farmers. I am unaware of any primary source which directly or indirectly suggest that was the case. A century earlier perhaps but not that late in my opinion. Further, why would the Sarmaticization of the Vandals be less complete than the Goths who were likewise exposed to the Sarmatian peoples but apparently not the same level as the Vandals? The Sarmatians were present with the Goths at Adrianopolis (the Roxolani) and the leaders of the "Goth" cavalry, Saphrax and Alatheus both bear Sarmatian/Iranian names indicative of a strong Sarmatian influence amongst the Germans.

With respect to the battle with the Franks, it does reinforce the notion of close ties between the Vandals and Alans and that perhaps the Alans were more numerous and powerful. Prof. Zavroff argues that until the destruction of the Alan kingdom in 418, they were the dominant partners in an Alan, Vandal, Suebi Confederacy. In support he notes the relative importance of the Alans in the sources for the 2nd and 3rd centuries and the very few mentions of Vandals. He further notes that the aforementioned Confederacy is invariably described in the sources as "the Alans, Vandals and Suebi"; suggesting a dominancy. Likewise, in the Spanish settlement, the Alans received the lions share of the territory, a broad swathe through central Spain while the Suebi were consigned to the northwest and the Vandals the south. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that there were relatively few Alan horsemen. Prior to their destruction at the hands of the Visigoths they must have been powerful enough to justifying taking the aforementioned lion's share of the territory.

I am well aware of the Carthaginian mosaic. I agree that it could represent either an Alan or Vandal warrior but in my opinion is more likely to be a Sarmaticized Vandal. They were, after all, the primary conquerors. However, we cannot outright dismiss the possibility that the mosaic was commissioned by or for an Alan noble.

Likewise, I am aware in the 418 change in title for the king of the Vandals. There are numerous possibilities as to why the Alans were not simply absorbed into the Vandals. The simplest answer is history and respect. The Vandals had done pretty well for themselves because of their involvement with the Alans. If that isn't reason enough, stripping an already defeated people of their identity is not likely to raise morale and engender feelings of warmth. At a time of significant threat why sow division and resentment?

If not before the Migration, when did the Vandals transition to a mounted warrior society? After the fall of Carthage? I have a hard time believing the Vandals crossed N. Africa on foot, drove out the Romans and then decided to transition from what was obviously working. What was the impetus for change? Moorish/Berber raiders? Heavy cavalry is not ideal at hunting down raiders particularly in a potentially hostile environment. Where did the horses come from? I don't believe North Africa was noted for its horses.

If you haven't read Prof. Zavroff's article I highly recommend it. The depth and complexity of his argument may well sway you, given the lack of any real evidence to support for the claim that the Vandals were still farmer/foot warriors at the start of the 5th Century.

Just my 2 cents/p.

Kent

#2
List Queries / Early Vandals
January 14, 2023, 04:33:44 AM
Inspired by Ian Hughes two excellent biographies of Stilicho and Aetius, I've been contemplating a "cooperative" campaign where the players hold various commands in the late fourth and early/mid fifth century Roman armies in the West with umpire/AI controlled invaders.

I'm working through the various invading groups and their respective army lists. The list that stood out is the Early Vandals. The list covers the period 166-444 and makes the claim that at this time the Vandals fought on foot. From my limited research, it appears that as a result of long term exposure to the Sarmatians/Alans and a significant change in the economy from agrarian to horse husbandry, the Vandals were predominantly charging lance armed cavalry likely fighting in Sarmatian style without a shield by the time of the Migration. Can anyone please provide any authority for the claim that the Vandals were still fighting on foot in my period of interest or, is it a wargame convention to create some differentiation in barbarian armies?

Any input is gratefully received.

Cheers
Kent

#3
List Queries / Re: Early Byzantines - Huns
August 06, 2022, 03:38:44 PM
Early Byzantines have long been one of my favourite armies and a period of great interest. My first Byzantine army, acquired some 30 years ago, was composed of highly converted figures from Tabletop Games 15mm Late Roman, Hunnic and Gothic figures.

Personally, I think the list writer is being very generous in both allowing 2 TuG of "Huns" in the army and allowing one to be "skirmishers". While it has been a while since I read my Procopius, I can't recall any record of more than one "unit" of mercenary horse archers in the armies led by Belisarius (I stand to be corrected). Where did these mercenary horse archers originate; they were not a troop type in most Western armies until approx. the 4th century C.E.? Horse archers are recorded in Achaemenid armies originating in the Eastern most provinces, ie. Bactria, Sogdia; likewise the Parthians. Later, we have the Alans who were forced West by encroaching Huns and then after the break up of the Hunnic "empire", the Avars. I suspect Belisarius's 600 Huns were in fact Avars, who were not shy at entering combat and were active and encroaching into Byzantine areas of influence at the time. If my assumption is correct, they should be represented as either Formed Flexible with characteristics similar to the "Huns" or as Formed Loose and similar to the Bucellarii. So, the question remains; who are the "skirmishing" horse archers? What remained of the Alans was a long way from the Eastern Roman empire as were horse archers of Persian origin. While we know of individual Persians deserting and joining the Byzantines, I find it difficult to accept that there were enough deserters from the Eastern most reaches of Persia to form a separate unit. I think there is a stronger argument for regrading the "Huns" as Formed Loose or upgrading them to Protected Formed Flexible on the basis that a valuable mercenary unit would be provided armour or, that they had acquired armour on the battlefield. In my humble opinion, there is no historical justification for allowing "skirmishing" horse archers in an Early Byzantine army. I stand to be corrected and look forward to counter points on this fascinating topic.

On a slightly different tangent, can someone please tell me why there is no allowance for Slavs in the Early Byzantine list? Isaurians (is anyone aware of a decent 15mm figure for Isaurians?) were common in Eastern armies but I do not recall any mention of them in Belisarius's armies in the West. However, Procopius does mention two different groups of Slavs as present or usually present in Byzantine armies. If I recall correctly, he disparages one group, perhaps the Antes, who were recruited and were untrained and of little martial value and compares them to other Slavs who were in fact valuable warriors.

#4
Player Discussion / Re: Evade/Run Away
September 08, 2021, 04:46:02 PM
I am a little confused by the hypothetical posed by Hunter in which a charged unit evades to its front and wheels to get behind the charging unit. The rules, on p. 128 clearly state directly to one's own front. Wheeling is not directly to the front. As I understand it a unit making an evade move can only wheel to align with the charge direction. Am I misunderstanding the rules or taking them too literally?
#5
Well not a horse archer army per se, how about the Mitanni? 16 files of highly mobile drilled skilled chariots, half of which are superior? Apart from one unit Formed Loose spear, the entire army can be bow armed with another 4 files of skilled shooters. Professional commanders ensures high PBS count and the chariots coupled with a couple of small SuGs of skirmishers give a Scouting of 5. Lots of fun to play with although it lacks a bit of punch. Nothing like 32 chariots (Spitfires of the ancient world) running over a battlefield, though.
#6
Another question arising from the game Stephan T is referring to.

Can a TuG which is already engaged to its front with an opposing TuG be charged? The engaged TuG (Red) has two files opposed by a two file opposing TuG (Blue). A second TuG (Blue) is on the immediate flank (maybe 10mm seperating) with one of its two files front edges slightly behind the front edge of the Red TuG.

I believe that the 2nd Blue TuG meets the requirement for a flank charge and could charge with a wheel into Red's flank. Is that correct?

If the 2nd Blue TuG's file's front edge was not behind behind the line, could it still charge by wheeling and making contact with Red's flank edge but not claim the flank charge benefits?

Thanks gentlemen. The toughest part of mastering a new set of rules, particularly when there aren't a lot of players is exorcising old concepts and rules such as a "target" of a charge.

Kent
#7
Rules Queries and Clarifications / Re: shoot & charge
August 06, 2021, 06:37:51 PM
IMHO the suggestion that a TuG with Shoot and Charge can target an enemy TuG with missle fire that is not the target of the charge stretches both the rule and reality beyond the max. The intent of the rule seems crystal clear to me.
#8
Thanks for your quick response Nik. You have come to the rescue again...

Off to finish my game pitting my Late Western Imperial Romans against my mate's Indo- Greeks. Not going well for the Romans. 8 files of experienced darts and not a single wound. His 2 TuGs of 3 elephants are turning my Auxilia Palatina into Auxilia Palatina jam. I love my Late Romans but haven't figured out how to use them effectively. I think reequipping my Auxilia Palatina with Experienced Darts at the expense of losing Melee Expert was a big mistake.
#9
Couple of no brainers that my befuddled brain hasn't sorted out:

1) Can an army with a Competent Instinctive commander have a Talented Instinctive ally general? I don't believe so but...

2) Does Shatter/Shove carry on into the next combat round? For example, in the charge phase the attacker obtains a shatter result. One of the files affected is not in contact/combat but would count as supporting in the melee phase. Does the shatter result carry over? I thought I read that is does not but I haven't been able to find the reference.

Thanks everyone.

Kent

PS Isn't it great fun to be back gaming after so long?
#10
List Queries / Re: Biblical lists question
June 23, 2021, 07:15:58 PM
The Ancients podcast recently did an episode with an expert on chariot warfare. Well worth a listen. The guest, whose name I can't recall, discusses the nature of chariot warfare during the Bronze Age and chariot warfare in China. He likens chariot warfare in the middle east to a dogfight.
#11
Nik to the rescue again. That settles it, a Late Crusader army it is. I'll hold off on the figures until we learn the fate of Legio Heroica. I really regret postponing a number of projects where his beautiful figures could have been used.

Thank you for your ongoing assistance. I look forward to meeting you at a MeG event once travel restrictions are lifted. I might even have a handle on the game by then...lol

Cheers,
Kent
#12
List Queries / Later Crusader List Clarification
June 18, 2021, 03:05:25 PM
Inspired by the recent MeG podcast on the later Crusader period and wanting to treat myself to a new army I started looking at the Later Crusader list. It's a list I have looked at in a number of different rules but was always a project I put off until later.

Anyway, the Crusaders are permitted up to two contingents of Religious Order troops. Can each contingent contain the fanatic brother knights and turcopoles?

Thanks in advance for any/all assistance.

Kent
#13
Thanks Nik for the very clear explanation. That paragraph has stumped me for some time.

Cheers,
Kent
#14
Thank you for the quick response. That is certainly not clear as written.

What is really confusing me is "Professional generals may hold one more than their allowance but then receive no new cards as already above their normal amount."

So, if our CP held back 1 card, surely he would be dealt 3 cards; his allowance plus 1 extra. Unless I'm missing something which is very possible, as written the CP must hold his entire hand to get the extra card.

Thanks again for the help.
#15
I must be thick but could someone please explain section SP1.1 on page 81?

The section reads as follows: "Players place any cards they have kept from the previous turn next to their on table generals. Professional generals may hold one more than their allowance but then receive no new cards as already above their normal amount."

If I understand this correctly, the "extra card" must have been gifted earlier in the turn. For example, our general is a competent professional. He used all his cards during the previous turn. He is dealt three cards and is gifted one by his CiC. During the course of the turn he spends 3 of his 4 cards keeping the gifted card.

How many cards is he dealt? I think he would receive two new cards bring his hand to three. Is that correct?

If however, he didn't spend any cards during the turn, he could keep all four for the upcoming turn. Is that correct?

Finally, after being gifted another card bringing the total to five, our general has another inactive turn and keeps his hand throughout the turn. The following turn he would have to discard one of his cards to bring the total back down to four. Is that correct?

Summing up, the only way a general can hold an extra card is if his hand is maxxed out at the start of the turn.

Thanks in advance for any assistance. This section could be a lot clearer and should have been included in the General's section on pp. 88 ff. A great set of rules but poorly edited and organized.

Back to painting some Essex Thessalian cavalry to reinforce one of my oldest armies. Trying to match my painting style of almost 30 years ago has been challenging... :)