Hi Richard
I have a few suggestions. I'll PM you.
Lee

I ask this as the Norman list seems mainly geared to Normandy/north Europe, whereas the Normans in Sicily list doesn't start until 1072. Civitate was fought in 1053.
Lee

Thanks for posting this passage.

And I see Sabin also treats them as hoplites in his scenario in Lost Battles.

Thanks but my point is whether the list should require them to take hoplites. At 2nd Mantinea, for example, the Thessalian cavalry were recorded as present (as allies of Thebes). Does anyone know if Diodoros lists them amongst the hoplite continents present? Xenophon's account is very short and vague.

Does a Thessalian (internal) ally in a Classical Greek list have to take a TUG of hoplites? Or can they just take the cavalry TUGs and SUGs and the light javelinmen SUGs under the Thessalian section of the list?

Thanks

Lee

I see the point. Have you read Peacock's book on Seljuks of Rum?

And don't know if you spotted that Whitby's book on Justinian is out:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wars-Justinian-I-Michael-Whitby/dp/1526760886

Thanks Nik

As you'll know, the Sultanate of Rum seceded from the Great Seljuk Empire under Suleiman ibn Qutalmish in 1077, who set up his capital at Nicea. As you say 1140 is arbitrary, whereas 1077 is at least the traditional date of the founding of the Rum Sultanate. If it's the Frankish mercenaries that are driving it, I'd just date restricting them from 1140 and then date the Rum from late C11th. Even 1092, when the other Seljuk satellite lists start following fragmentation of the main Seljuk power, would be better.

To me the Beylik list seems better for the Turcomans tribes and the likes of the Damishmenids, whereas restricting the Seljuks to 1 TUG of 6 mamluks is a bit mean for members of the Seljuk royal family, albeit scions.  0-12 feels better for Dorylaeum and still allows the majority of the army to be Turcomans.

Anyway, well played using the Rum at Cross and Crescent and I look forward to hearing all about it on the podcast!

Thanks Richard.

Is the 1140 start date wrong for this list? Not sure what evidence is for this date.

Not sure the Early Beyliks lists is right for Dorylaeum in 1097, for example, and the narrative in both the First Crusade list and Rum list mentions the Sultanate of Rum being around at time of First Crusade.

The Anglo-Saxon lists allow mixed TUGs, eg:

"Hird on foot, select fyrd and great fyrd may be mixed in the same TuG of 6,8, or 9 elements."

Does this mean that you can take a mixed TUG of only Hird and select fyrd, or do you have to include great fyrd as well?

The wording seems permissive and doesn't specify all 2 types have to be taken together.

Thanks

Lee

Hi Nathan

Yes, back on the school run.

We hope to start playing as soon as restrictions allow after Easter.

PM me and Dave and we can discuss timings.

Cheers

Lee

Hi Nathan

Hope all's well with you and the family.

As always, your painting is fantastic.

I'll be going to Battlefield Hobbies for a game when permitted (Hammy thinks late May with rule of 6 reintroduced )

Dave and I have been a few times. We usually book tables on a Saturday.

Lee

Lovely Nik. I've a Lurkio Chinese army. I've tended to play Eastern Han but have been looking at the Western Han of late. How do you find it plays?
Lee

Belated thanks! I have tried some on Lurkio Chinese cavalry and they came out very well. I find you have to be more accurate, but overall it speeds things up.

First of all, great hook up with PSC; all very exciting.

On the painted figures above , which brown paints/washes did you use?