MeG

News from the Author => Rules Queries => Topic started by: badhabum on February 02, 2019, 01:57:49 PM

Title: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 02, 2019, 01:57:49 PM
 If a SUG is charged in the flank and turns 90 to run away or SK, it will shorten it's depth as a base is not as deep as it is wide . So may the SUG use this to augment the basic distance between the SUG and the charging unit ?
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 02, 2019, 05:48:53 PM
It doesn't necessarily reduce its depth, but the move distance is not adjusted if it does.

Richard
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Onurbm on February 02, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
Do I understand correctly that the Sug movement will anyway be measured from the point nearest to the charging TUG.
OK?

Other methods as indicated by bahdabum might ( artificially IMO )  increase Sug chances to escape being contacted " base depth is not BW "
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 02, 2019, 06:52:35 PM
Do I understand correctly tha he Sug movemnt will anyway be measured from the point nearest to the charging TUG.
OK?

I think that RJC may be saying that, however, I don't recall anything in the rules that actually says that - if they do and I've missed it to date I'd love the reference as it'd be dead useful  8)
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 02, 2019, 07:21:17 PM
So what ?

IMO the distance between the target and the charging unit should not be variable when turning ...but you may read the rules there is nothing about it .

A point to clarify !
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Geoff on February 03, 2019, 06:10:45 AM
Absolutely. These little details are really needed to make these rules top shelf
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 03, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
Sorry, my earlier comment wasn't clear.

My view is that the turn is made and move distance carried out as per the rules. 9.4D4.5 (p76).   Because the depth may change by the unit being turned then it may help the unit to avoid contact. 

You may not agree with the consequences but, if you suggest anything else you are actually inventing new rules!

Richard


Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 03, 2019, 05:12:47 PM
Thanks for the clarification of what you were saying.

My understanding of the rules is the same.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Onurbm on February 03, 2019, 07:24:04 PM
IMO we just need some sharp and clear statement in order to avoid vasted arguing time during competitions ;)
My thanks to Richard
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 03, 2019, 07:29:52 PM
Well I cannot invent new rules as the rules say nothing about such a case ...we needed some precision as to avoid discussion
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 03, 2019, 09:42:59 PM
Rules say you turn and then make the move. Seems precise enough to me.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 04, 2019, 08:04:19 AM
Well I cannot invent new rules as the rules say nothing about such a case ...we needed some precision as to avoid discussion

I do not agree.  The rules make it clear how to turn a unit.  The rules make it clear the move distance involved.  A skirmish move is the same as any other move and is quite precise.  There is nothing different about it. 

Richard
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: marshalney2000 on February 04, 2019, 09:38:09 AM
Just an off the cuff question. If I chose to skirmish in front of an enemy can I chose not to shoot in the charge phase and fire in the shooting phase instead.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 04, 2019, 10:33:47 AM
Troops are never obliged to shoot 9.6A.4 (p91).
As long as you don't shoot in the Impact Phase you may shoot in the Shooting Phase.

Richard
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Kokor Hekkus on February 04, 2019, 12:26:04 PM
Trying to understand this, when turning 90, does your side edge become your new front new front face ?, if so a 9 base SuG 3 deep would move 1/2BW(20mm) away from chargers, that is big
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 04, 2019, 12:55:41 PM
That would appear to be the long and the short of it.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Simon Meg-Meister on February 04, 2019, 01:23:01 PM
It is what is says.
As SuGs play less of role in this game I didn't feel the complexity of the rest mattered.
So just do what it says and invent nothing new and its as intended.

Si
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 04, 2019, 07:44:11 PM
Quote
Troops are never obliged to shoot 9.6A.4 (p91).
As long as you don't shoot in the Impact Phase you may shoot in the Shooting Phase.

Richard

But if the unit runs away or make an SK move it is considered having shot even if it did not shoot and so would not shoot latter ! that was clearly stated on the old forum somewhere . Now if that has changed, please tell us as it will change many things .
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 04, 2019, 08:15:32 PM
Are you perhaps confusing this specific option in the claries with being a general rule?

Quote
SKIRMISHING WHEN CHARGED FROM FLANK/REAR

Is allowed to get a free turn if you are prepared to take the risk, but troops so doing are considered to have done a shooting action and cannot shoot in the shooting phase (they just had no real target).
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 04, 2019, 08:24:37 PM
Whatever that clary actually means - I'm a bit unsure to be honest  :o
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 05, 2019, 10:22:01 AM
I think Simon might clarify it . Either you may shoot or not is you went SK or Run away and did not shoot for a reason or another.

IMO : they fled or "retreated" and so cannot shoot .

But if permitted to shoot latter, during shooting phase it may lead to unusual situations like :

OK I was charged in the rear and I fled and now I am within 1 MU of antother ennemy SK unit, unprotected and in the back of that SK unit . I will shoot on green dice and he cannot shoot back ( which means by running away I can close to a potential juicy target )

So lots of possibilities. To make it easy, I would just say : you fled, you SK  you are automaticaly considered as having shot .
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 05, 2019, 10:27:16 AM
I have no issues with that scenario. Doesn't happen that often anyway, and if you remember that real movement isn't in discreet chunks the way the tabletop represents it it isn't unrealistic.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 05, 2019, 08:20:34 PM
The issue is logic in the rules and simplicity .

If a unit charged in the rear or flank and does a SK it may not shoot at all . If it ran away it would be able to shoot at a new target . This may lead to confusion .

For me the simplicity is : cannot shoot at all as it had no target to begin with and they are too busy running for their lives even if charged by fully armoured infantry  8)

But it's only an opinion
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 05, 2019, 08:42:36 PM
If a unit charged in the rear or flank and does a SK it may not shoot at all .

Are you basing that off the clary I quoted above? (mind you as noted I am not quite sure what it is on about) If so that only says you cannot shoot in the shooting phase if you make a free turn - so if you don't you'd still be able to shoot.


Quote
If it ran away it would be able to shoot at a new target . This may lead to confusion .


Not really IMO as they are distinct and different actions.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Onurbm on February 06, 2019, 08:59:41 AM


I do not agree.  The rules make it clear how to turn a unit.  The rules make it clear the move distance involved.  A skirmish move is the same as any other move and is quite precise.  There is nothing different about it. 

Richard
Clear ? not Clear ? maybe just old habits from other rulesets ( FOG, ADG ) where skirmiishing move is handled differently ... :o
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 06, 2019, 12:20:47 PM
Anyway Simon answered in another post .

If you run away or SK, you did a shooting so no more shooting after in the same turn.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 06, 2019, 02:14:27 PM
Anyway Simon answered in another post .

If you run away or SK, you did a shooting so no more shooting after in the same turn.


Well, when he updates the claries to actually say that ...
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 06, 2019, 07:19:45 PM
Well he wrote it on the forum and it has been so for years
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 07, 2019, 07:46:12 AM
Well he wrote it on the forum and it has been so for years

With respect, I have been involved in the development of the rules since play testing, and if you mean that "skirmising is a shooting action" has been so for years then I respectfully disagree as this  post is the first time I have seen this stated and I have played games with the author where troops have skirmished and then shot in the shooting phase.

9.6A3.1 (page 91) states that troops who shot at chargers in the charge phase may not shoot in the shooting phase (thereby implying that troops who did not shoot in the charge phase may shoot).

If we are now saying that troops who skirmished cannot shoot in the shooting phase - then IMO you have introduced a rule change and it needs a change to secion 9.6A.

If it was stated in a post on the old forum, it still doesn't override what the rules say - it need an official clarification to do that.

Richard



Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 07, 2019, 10:46:58 AM
Quote
If we are now saying that troops who skirmished cannot shoot in the shooting phase - then IMO you have introduced a rule change and it needs a change to secion 9.6A.

 

What is written by Simon, unless I am mistaken, is that if charged in the FLANK or in the REAR , and so does not face the ennemy, does not have the ennemy in it's arc of fire during the charge, if the unit runs away or make a SK turning to face the charge but still retreating ...it is considered having fired without firing ...

If a unit fired - or is considred having fired - during SK it may not fire anymore .

Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:03:15 PM
This is a lack of clarity issue from me that I need to clear up. :(
Leave it with me for a few days while I get some time to find a proper answer and then will clarify.

My intent was that turning round as a skirmish AND then shooting as well was too generous.
So I don't want the rules to allow that.  That's the key part.
Either they pay to turn around and are allowed to shoot at anything to their front before movement phase.
Or we allow the turn as part of skirmish - which feels right as a "back away and turn to face the threat" order - but no shots.
So whatever I come up with will cause that to happen.

RJC is right about how it is written so I need to ponder and fix.  Hope that bit on intent vs draft helps in between.

Si
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 08, 2019, 12:31:29 PM
Cheers. Take your time on the clary to get it right, I don't think this one is massively urgent.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 08, 2019, 01:55:46 PM
We are beginning to see the light 8)
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 02:28:04 PM
Pleasure.

Si
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 10, 2019, 08:33:15 PM
Thinking a bot more about this, and a bit of a chat with RJC, I think that it would be simpler and better to just have troops who skirmish/run-away make that move, don't bother with the option to turn if charged fromflank/rear, and to let them shoot of they happen to have a target in the shooting phase. It happens so rarely that it isn't an issue.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Simon Meg-Meister on February 11, 2019, 07:33:56 AM
Yes it's kept simple. the edge turns and forms a new line there.
So indeed after expanding back to legal formation you are 1.5 BW deep and you did have a 3BW frontage.
So you have "moved" your nearest point 1.5BW away.

We are being a bit to literal on this anyway.  In reality a most manoeuvring of front rank jis done at walking pace to get in position, whereas rear ranks of loosed formation will run to fill in behind.  So its is not so silly anyway.

Granted it is if someone deployed 12 warband single rank and then turns ... but in MeG that is suicide anyway so who cares.  So in all practical circumstances I have never seen it matter hugely.

Si
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: stuuk on February 11, 2019, 10:10:50 AM
yes when turning your old side becomes your new front
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 11, 2019, 05:02:20 PM
I would just like to ask a precision :

When you run away, you just go away from the nasty TUG ( or SUG )that charges you.

Now does a SUG that is charged in the rear or flank turn 90 or 180 to face the charging unit or is it simply the moving distance that's modified ? ( I know if charged frontally, it shoots and retreats FACING the charging unit ).

Why the question : because if you say make it simple, if they SK and had no legal target while skirmishing, they may shoot during the shooting phase . That means they will be able to shoot at the previous charging unit .

It is Ok for me, but makes SK units much more powerful and difficult to counter.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 11, 2019, 05:14:36 PM
9.4D4.4 (p75).  You can skirmish or run away in one of three directions: (note after rolling the dice to determine how far you move)
a. To your own front.
b. To your own rear.
c. In the direction of the charge.

9.4D4.5 (p76)
If you run away you face away from the chargers.
If you skirmish you face toward the chargers.

So, if I have understood the previous answers in this thread correctly (and I am not certain about that), my understanding is that if the skirmishing UG was forced to turn then it cannot shoot in the shooting phase.   Note, if it was facing the chargers frontally and then merely went directly to its own rear then it has not turned and so any elements that didn't shoot in the charge phase (possibly because they were more than 1BW from the charge path) could now shoot.  This could even be at a unit that wasn't involved in the charge.

Richard
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 11, 2019, 05:24:13 PM
As it stands only a unit skirmishing can free turn when charged from the flank/rear and if it takes that option (the turn) it cannot shoot - that is the clary (its not actually in the rules document it was added later). Troops running away do not have this option and stay facing in the direction thay have moved.

Currently, apart from that specific case, there is nothing in the rules about a unit which skirmished or ran away without shooting not being able to shoot in the shooting phase if they happen to have a target.

Simon has said he thinks the skirmish/run away action should inherantly be considered a shooting action as well and so preclude any shooting in the shooting phase - and, I think, that the free turn be allowed for both skirmish and run away (but I may be wrong on that).

I am suggesting that the clary mentioned above should be removed and that a unit that skirmished/ran-away without shooting should be allowed to shoot in the shooting phase should there be a target (an infrequent event IMO).
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 11, 2019, 05:34:48 PM
As it stands only a unit skirmishing can free turn when charged from the flank/rear and if it takes that option (the turn) it cannot shoot - that is the clary (its not actually in the rules document it was added later). Troops running away do not have this option and stay facing in the direction thay have moved.

If you read the rules, there doesn't appear to be any option.  Troops running away must face away from the chargers.  Troops who are skirmishing must face the chargers.

I still find the clarification so vague as to be unhelpful.

Richard 
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 11, 2019, 06:57:55 PM
I suspect you are correct and I have got a bit tangled up because of the clary which says it is optional  :-[
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Simon Meg-Meister on February 12, 2019, 07:53:41 AM
As it stands only a unit skirmishing can free turn when charged from the flank/rear and if it takes that option (the turn) it cannot shoot - that is the clary (its not actually in the rules document it was added later). Troops running away do not have this option and stay facing in the direction thay have moved.

If you read the rules, there doesn't appear to be any option.  Troops running away must face away from the chargers.  Troops who are skirmishing must face the chargers.

I still find the clarification so vague as to be unhelpful.

Richard

There is indeed no choice in the matter.  Skirmish and you face the enemy, run away and you face away from them.  Point me at the clarry causing confusion - apologies - as I am in MeG mode this week.  Will fix it.  Si
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 12, 2019, 08:47:09 AM
Bottom of page 8 and start of page 9 in the claries doc - Skirmishing When Charged From Flank/Rear.

IMO reads as if the turn is optional.

Plus the question of whether they should be able to shoot in the shooting phase which would also apply to troops running away who ended up with a target in front of them - IMO there is nothing in the rules stopping them shooting (and that is OK).
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: lionheartrjc on February 12, 2019, 08:47:59 AM
It is the section headed "Skirmishing when Charged from Flank/Rear" at the bottom of page 8, top of page 9.

Richard
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 16, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
What already happened sometimes is the following :

A TUG charges a SUG on the flank but from some distance . The SUG did a skirmish to the rear just enough to avoid being caught by the charging TUG .

So it ended facing the charger and within firing distance and did not turn facing the charging TUG but the end result was that it faced the charging TUG and did not turn to face it ...if it is considered to have shot, I wouls say OK . It it may still shoot we will have to reconsider some charges  8)

If skirmishing now includes a mandatory turn to face the ennemy ( in case of flank or rear charge ) and it is clearly written that way, it will simplify many things
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Simon Meg-Meister on February 16, 2019, 07:05:31 PM
Ok Rules pave 76 4.5 defines the end position of a Skirmish or a Run Away. 
There is no choice. 
You skirmish your remain facing the enemy, you run away you end facing away from them.

Clarry as written says:
Quote
SKIRMISHING WHEN CHARGED FROM FLANK/REAR
   Is allowed to get a free turn if you are prepared to take the risk, but troops so doing are considered to have done a shooting action and cannot shoot in the shooting phase (they just had no real target).

My use of allowed is a bit ambiguous I agree.  Should say perhaps

SKIRMISHING WHEN CHARGED FROM FLANK/REAR
   It is allowed to do a skirmish response.  This will give you get a free turn in order to comply with the end position of facing the enemy charge as per P76 4.5.  UGs so doing are considered to have done a shooting action and cannot shoot in the shooting phase (consider they were ordered to turn and shoot but had insufficient firepower given their situation to do any damage).


Comments welcome.

Simon
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: badhabum on February 16, 2019, 08:45:19 PM
You know why I asked  8)

Should it not be a free mandatory turn ?

I ask because otherwise one question will remain : but if I did not turn facing the enemy I might shoot ..
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: nikgaukroger on February 16, 2019, 08:56:42 PM
Agreed, this should say the turn is mandatory.
Title: Re: Skirmishing or running away
Post by: Simon Meg-Meister on February 17, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Indeed it is.
Happy to take refinements to the rewording above if still not clear.

Si