In the 2020 Nilephorian army list, what a surprise ! the Varangian guard start to exist in 1035 !
My question is where were they- as guards - between 988 and 1035 ?
We know that Basil II ( who died in 1025 ) received them as a « gift » from Vladimir The Great in 988. That they were not guard in 988 is pretty sure .
From Psellos : 13. The emperor Basil was well aware of disloyalty among the Romans, but not long before this a picked band of Scythians had come to help him from the Taurus, and a fine body of men they were.**11 He had these men trained in a separate corps, combined with them another mercenary force, divided by companies, and sent them out to fight the rebels.
So the « scythians » who are Rhos, swedish vikings or varangians are considered a picked unit and they did train. I have no idea how Basile II managed to train them, but gold might have been a good incentive.
Moreover, Psellos describe Basile as a stern disciplinarian. So he would have been keen on training. Did the varangian evolve in one day ? no but gradually yes.
Allo osprey books I have read, all sources I managed to find on internet and the book « The varangians of Byzantium » ( Rewritten by B ;S ;Benedikz ) point to the same thing : those picked men were part off all campaings and due to internal politics of Byzantium, they became the emperor's bodyguard as non greek natives . They had access to imperial armouries and good equipment.
So they were trained, had a guard status and were well equiped. According to Benedikz, part of the varangians are listed as part of the Grand hetairia, or imperial guard and we speak of Basile II period . Part of the varangians makes sens as from sources a nucleus of the original 5-6000 warriors are concerned, those who will be the varangians in the city, the imperial bodyguards. So much sooner than 1035 . The source for this is a texte called « De Re Militari » - not from Vegetius- but I could not find a copy of it .
So, to me, all points towards a much sooner date for 6 bases of superior,drilled, close varangians.
As to why they loose their fully armoured characteristic. That is something I would like to know, having painted them in full armour and I am being very tired of that type of changes.
We know that iron greaves and vambraces were available from the 7th century ? that varangians guard used mail, lamellar and scale armour. So what ?
Thank you for an answer before I stop playing with the varangian guard.
Quote from: badhabum on November 22, 2019, 05:10:18 PM
In the 2020 Nilephorian army list, what a surprise ! the Varangian guard start to exist in 1035 !
My question is where were they- as guards - between 988 and 1035 ?
We know that Basil II ( who died in 1025 ) received them as a « gift » from Vladimir The Great in 988. That they were not guard in 988 is pretty sure .
From Psellos : 13. The emperor Basil was well aware of disloyalty among the Romans, but not long before this a picked band of Scythians had come to help him from the Taurus, and a fine body of men they were.**11 He had these men trained in a separate corps, combined with them another mercenary force, divided by companies, and sent them out to fight the rebels.
So the « scythians » who are Rhos, swedish vikings or varangians are considered a picked unit and they did train. I have no idea how Basile II managed to train them, but gold might have been a good incentive.
Moreover, Psellos describe Basile as a stern disciplinarian. So he would have been keen on training. Did the varangian evolve in one day ? no but gradually yes.
Allo osprey books I have read, all sources I managed to find on internet and the book « The varangians of Byzantium » ( Rewritten by B ;S ;Benedikz ) point to the same thing : those picked men were part off all campaings and due to internal politics of Byzantium, they became the emperor's bodyguard as non greek natives . They had access to imperial armouries and good equipment.
So they were trained, had a guard status and were well equiped. According to Benedikz, part of the varangians are listed as part of the Grand hetairia, or imperial guard and we speak of Basile II period . Part of the varangians makes sens as from sources a nucleus of the original 5-6000 warriors are concerned, those who will be the varangians in the city, the imperial bodyguards. So much sooner than 1035 . The source for this is a texte called « De Re Militari » - not from Vegetius- but I could not find a copy of it .
So, to me, all points towards a much sooner date for 6 bases of superior,drilled, close varangians.
Quality you can argue around that one for ages but however you look at it they are the best infantry in the list by some way (and now have added Shove). The lists appear to have them "grow into" better quality over time - and they start off better than the average Rus spearmen to start with as well. I have a recollection that the first contemporary reference to them as Varangian Guard is 1034 FWIW. I doubt there is an objectively right answer to when Superior becomes justified.
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As to why they loose their fully armoured characteristic. That is something I would like to know, having painted them in full armour and I am being very tired of that type of changes.
We know that iron greaves and vambraces were available from the 7th century ? that varangians guard used mail, lamellar and scale armour. So what ?
Thank you for an answer before I stop playing with the varangian guard.
Because despite the numbers of modern illustrations of Varangians with limb armour, usually splinted, the actual evidence for it for is zero for period Byzantine infantry (as opposed to the katafraktoi whose limited numbers do use it, obviously) - the justification is often that examples have been excavated in Sweden and so get projected onto the Varangians in Byzantine service, however, those date from the C6th/7th and no later and from rather a long way away.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 22, 2019, 09:34:09 PM
Because despite the numbers of modern illustrations of Varangians with limb armour, usually splinted, the actual evidence for it for is zero for period Byzantine infantry (as opposed to the katafraktoi whose limited numbers do use it, obviously) - the justification is often that examples have been excavated in Sweden and so get projected onto the Varangians in Byzantine service, however, those date from the C6th/7th and no later and from rather a long way away.
Ooh, another quote from my bookshelf! This is from The Varangians of Byzantium by S. Blondal (p184 in my edition):-
"The mailed coats could be of very great strength and made with great skill, as in the case of Haraldr Siguroarson, whose coat Emma, which protected him down to the calves, was made in Byzantium". His referencing in a footnote is to the Ljosvelninga Saga (though I think all the Sagas were written down much later than Harald's time, so not necessarily reliable)
Yup, that's the book Jacques refers to - he gave the translator. Useful book, recommended for anyone looking into the Varangian guard ;D
Sagas have their uses, but as they big up the hero always need some caution when extrapolating to "lesser men" 8)
Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 23, 2019, 10:00:35 AM
Yup, that's the book Jacques refers to - he gave the translator. Useful book, recommended for anyone looking into the Varangian guard ;D
Sagas have their uses, but as they big up the hero always need some caution when extrapolating to "lesser men" 8)
Yeah, looking at it, it is Blondal translated by Benedikz. I didn't pick up on that because I was so pleased with myself for finding something specific about armour and legs! You know armour is good when it gets a pet name like Emma! However, also need to remember Sagas being written down later perhaps make assumptions based on armour of their time not Harald's.
I still disagree .
Back to The Varangians ( Blondal & Benedikz ) 2007 edition, pg 45 and 46 , citing as sources Psellos. The De Re militari ' unknown author but a ed R Vari, Leipzig, 1901, citing J Kulakvskii, making reference to Jenkins Byzantium, the imperial years..based on all that, the autohor is of the opinion that the Varangians were part of the Grand Hetairia during the reign of Basill II. The name Rgos is cited. That might be why we do not hear of a varangian guard before 1035 ( if so it is ) , but of another unit of the guard, named "the others" , our famous Rhos/Scythians who will later become known as the varangians.
Warren Threadold, Byzantium and Its army, pg 37, wrtites that : Basil appealed for help from the Russians,who provided him with a band of mercenaries. These crushed the rebels in a three-year civil war and became a permanent unit of the army known as the Varangian Guard.
We know that in 1017, after a successful campaign, Basill II decided to keep 1/3 of the booty for himself, 1/3 to the Rhos/Varangians, 1/3 to the rest of the army . Which is quite unusual for a "common" unit .
Osprey Elite 187, Raffaele D'Amato : Byzantine Imperial Guardsmen 925-1025 cites the Varangian Guard as part of the imperial guard . Before 1035 . The Varangian Guard is formed by a Nucleus of the Scythian mercenaries . So yes not in 988 but a few years latter .
Osprey Men-At-Arms 459 same author, The Varangian guard 988-1453 : pg 15 organisation : It is not clear exactly when the Norsemen where transformed from an elite mercenary unit of the field into the emperor's personal guard .
But, citing Blondal and Benedikz, citing the same sources as them, citing The Taktika of Nikephoros Ouranos ( 990-1000 CE ), explains that most foreign mercenaries where probably first incorporated in the Megali Hetairia ( imperial guard ). So Basil II may have created the "varangian guard" by mixing norsemen, rhos and other foreign mercenaries ( Psellos I;9 ) cited the case of the picked Tauro-Scythians that had recently joined him ( 988 ), had them trained and put them in a division with other foreign troops ..
The tactika seem to confirm the importance of the special unit of Rhos with other units of the Hetairia. But they are known as Rhos, as Tauro-Scythians ...will be know later as varangians ...but perhaps later. For now they are perhaps a foreign mercenary unit, part of the guard and the name varangian will come later that is my opinion . They are guard before 1035, pergaps around 990-995 .
So we have the day to day mercenaries, but also the guard unit much sooner than 1035, but concealed under the name " others, or rhos, or scythians .
You may tell me I am wrong, but then also all those autors are then wrong
Just for the example : The french old guard was the consular guard, after became the imperial guard. it will be joined by other regiments and so will become the Old guard and two other subdivisions will exist : middle and young guard ...but before being the OLD guard it was just the imperial guard ...
I suspect you are right - but does it make any difference in game terms? It affects the date you put in the box on the Army Builder - but that doesn't affect any of the choices you have (nothing else is date limited to clash with that) ... and if it is for a scenario game amongst friends you can do what you want
Quote from: daveparish on November 25, 2019, 02:56:19 PM
I suspect you are right - but does it make any difference in game terms? It affects the date you put in the box on the Army Builder - but that doesn't affect any of the choices you have (nothing else is date limited to clash with that) ... and if it is for a scenario game amongst friends you can do what you want
But it is nice to get stuff in the right date ranges where we can be sure of them. Jacques has something of a case, however, it's up to RJC where to draw the line in the sand as to when quality changes and that can be all too subjective. (FWIW RJC has done it a different way to how I would, but he knows what I suggested and chose something different so I will not be repeating it)
Honestly, I have 3 reasons :
- I like the campaigns of Basile II and to me the"selected/picked Rhos" are part of it . I know there are other guards units, but I think that the tagmata cavalry covers it correctly . 1035 is outside Basil II era, so it bothers me .
- I am convinced I am right and I always defend my ideas ( with respect of the others ideas )
- It has an impact on the game as some tournaments will stop at the year 1000 or 999 ...it's psychological but it is so .
I do not ask Fully Armoured, but I am convinced the nucleus did exist but under another name and it did earn gold. Otherwise, later, it would not have such a success among Rhos, Norsemen and other foreigners
Can we have an official answer ?
I am sure RJC will take a look as worthy questions.
S
I have absolutely no problem renaming them Rhos or Varangian guards. I also have no problem with re-dating them from 1017 CE. I am not convinced they should exist as early as 988. There also seems to be no mention of them in the campaigns of the 990s against the Fatamids.
The inclusion of Rhos/Varangians in guard units before 1000 CE seems possible, as they may have taken part in the campaigns against Bulgaria from 1000CE.
So I guess a date of 999 CE onwards seems a suitable date.
Richard
I never wrote that they went against the Fatamids . But we know that a "nucleus" was in the Grand hetairia and took part in " many campaigns" earlier than 1000 CE . How soon is a bit difficult and they would not be "superior guardsmen" in 988 that is sure . 999 is a good compromise to me and also iMO more conform to reality .
We have added the following to the official errata:
Early Medieval - Byzantium - Nikephorian Byzantine and Later Nikephorian Byzantine.
Regraded Skutatoi: Change to
Front rank infantry, Drilled Close, Average, Protected, Long Spear, Experienced Bow, Shield Cover, optional Shieldwall*, Combat Shy.
Rear rank infantry, Drilled Loose, Average, Protected, Experienced Bow, optional Shieldwall*, Combat Shy.
Add to the Notes: *Shieldwall representing integral Manaulatoi strengthening Skutatoi formations. Skutatoi may not take the Shieldwall characteristic if any Menaulatoi are supporting light troops. Rear rank bowmen with shieldwall are treated as close for combat if behind a base of spears.
Early Medieval - Byzantium - Nikephorian Byzantine
Varangians (from 988 CE) line becomes Varangians (to 998 CE) stays as is – Formed Close, Average, Protected, SSp, Shieldwall, Shove with optional ME, 0-18
Add Varangians (from 999 CE) Drilled Close, Average, Protected, SSp, Shieldwall, Shove with optional ME, 0-12.
Re-label "Varangian guard (from 1034 CE)" to "Upgrade Varangians as Rhos or Varangian guard (from 999 to 1033 CE)". Drilled Close, Superior, Protected, SSp, Shieldwall, Shove with optional ME, Dismountable 0-6.
Add line "Regrade Rhos or Varangian guard (from 1034 CE)" Drilled Close, Exceptional, Protected, Long Spear, Shield Cover, Shove, optional Dismountable. All.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 29, 2019, 07:28:38 AM
. Rear rank bowmen with shieldwall are treated as close for combat if behind a base of spears.
Richard
I don't quite get this - does this just mean if the unit is hit in the flank or rear it counts as close?
...ooh,ooh ...while writing this I just had a thought. Is this so that they count Shieldwall while two deep (one close spear, one loose bow)?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 29, 2019, 07:28:38 AM
Early Medieval - Byzantium - Nikephorian Byzantine and Later Nikephorian Byzantine.
Regraded Skutatoi: Change to
Front rank infantry, Drilled Close, Average, Protected, Long Spear, Experienced Bow, Shield Cover, optional Shieldwall*, Combat Shy.
Rear rank infantry, Drilled Loose, Average, Protected, Experienced Bow, optional Shieldwall*, Combat Shy.
I assume this means that the Combat Shy is optional? Maybe need to deploy semi-colons for clarity here?
OK I should also say I think these are really good changes from the historical perspective. One thing I like particularly is the treatment of the Menauvlatoi. They are described as somehow out at the front of infantry units and enabling them to resist ferocious charges. It's never been clear how - or how to model that on the table. But Shieldwall seems like a really good way to do that - so, applause!
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I don't quite get this - does this just mean if the unit is hit in the flank or rear it counts as close?
...ooh,ooh ...while writing this I just had a thought. Is this so that they count Shieldwall while two deep (one close spear, one loose bow)?
Exactly what it means. The note will be a little clearer.
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I assume this means that the Combat Shy is optional?
Yes.
I think it is much better.
Si
YES 8)
Ok Richard will have some beers at IWC ;D
Quote from: badhabum on November 29, 2019, 07:48:48 PM
YES 8)
Ok Richard will have some beers at IWC ;D
trying to corrupt him?
;D
He cannot be corrupted, he is infallable! 🤣
Not corrupt him, négociations the belgian way ::)
Quote from: mad lemmey on November 30, 2019, 09:07:14 AM
He cannot be corrupted, he is infallable! 🤣
Certainly get plenty of things wrong... Nobody has tried to corrupt me, so that hasn't been put to the test...
Richard
Not necessarily incorruptible, eh? I'll have to start saving up my bribe money! It'd be awfully expensive (because historically highly improbable) but I'm thinking Burmese elephants, 20 of 'em, all upgradable to Exceptional, fully armored, with devastating charger and melee expert. Sure, melee expert elephants! They've got those big swords attached to their trunks! Oh, dear, that's gonna call for a HUGE bribe. Next year maybe.
:) :) :)
A fine example of our desired collaborative process and timing.
Quote from: AntiokosIII on November 30, 2019, 03:29:54 PM
Not necessarily incorruptible, eh? I'll have to start saving up my bribe money! It'd be awfully expensive (because historically highly improbable) but I'm thinking Burmese elephants, 20 of 'em, all upgradable to Exceptional, fully armored, with devastating charger and melee expert. Sure, melee expert elephants! They've got those big swords attached to their trunks! Oh, dear, that's gonna call for a HUGE bribe. Next year maybe.
It's MEG not Lord of the Rings. reread the book ;D
Those are in the supplement Dave!
Fantasy, here I come. Who makes good looking 15mm Mumakil?
Eureka
Quote from: AntiokosIII on December 02, 2019, 08:51:53 PM
Fantasy, here I come. Who makes good looking 15mm Mumakil?
Use 28mm elephant with 15mm figures...