Was complaining about what has happened to chariots in general discussion and Simon suggested I post this here as it is more of a list query.
Martin
QuoteDon't particularly want to run light chariots with melee expert. Can't understand why something as subjective as melee expert couldn't at least be made optional. Upping its cost just really pushes it over the edge in to 'hard no' territory.
To further add to my bemusement the army I run most often (Five Hegemons) can't have its cheap and effective shortspear any more. If it wants an impact factor it has to buy mounted frickin polearm. Expensive, a worse impact factor and leaves them puzzlingly good in melee (and massively expensive) because they still have to buy melee expert.
We are supposed to accept that these chariots were so good in melee that they are superior, polearm, melee expert. You then have a troop type that has spent 70 or so points on melee capabilities but also pays to shoot and evade!! It's a simply terrible, overequipped combination.
Martin,
Your complaint amounts to nothing more than you don't like what we have done with a particular troop type. You have made this point on numerous occasions over the last couple of months. I believe that the way we have chariots now matches the historical evidence (limited that it is) and is better than what we had previously.
There is no intention to change it back. Move on. I won't be making any further comment on this topic.
Richard
Ok I've had a look and I think
a) Richard is right the new list is a FAR better representation of what we know
b) you really underestimate the army. For my money it's better. Give it a try.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49094935126_a81cfbe5c9_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hNmnLJ)Screenshot 2019-11-20 at 15.21.49 (https://flic.kr/p/2hNmnLJ) by Simon Hall (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185117026@N02/), on Flickr
If you compare take no 5 on the 2019 list at 208pts:
Charge Combat. BCH+1 vs some and shatter; SSp +1 vs all
Melee Combat. ME +1
Move 4BW
Impetuous
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49094415628_52ec801d21_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hNiHkS)Screenshot 2019-11-20 at 15.22.14 (https://flic.kr/p/2hNiHkS) by Simon Hall (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185117026@N02/), on Flickr
To no 3 on this one at 218
Charge Combat +1 vs some and shatter
Melee Combat +1 Mtd Polearm, +1 ME
Move 5BW
Not impetuous
I prefer version 2. Of course if you like tanks you won't like it as much as we have transferred some power form charge combat to melee combat for these - rightly. But you fight 3 melee rounds per charge on average so overall I prefer the 2020 version.
We can't do much about you wanting tanks when we don't believe it is historical. You can get most of it back as well by adding DC and still only 236. Seem great to me.
You just need to adjust a bit or take Norman Milites or Teutons instead for proper tanks that are realistic. ;)
Time to move on and enjoy 2020!! Give them a go. I think they're better .... truly.
Si
To the best of my knowledge, the 'new insights' about chariots say nothing about melee expertise. They suggest the chariot frames were lighter, that the larger chariots were still maneuverable and probably not driving over people as shock weapons. The addition of compulsory melee expert to all these chariots has no new historical imperative at all. It seems to be what the list team has come up with to create a point of difference for the three crew chariots (now they don't have battlechariot).
Unfortunately it is not an appealing option (expensive melee capabilities are not what you want on a unit that tends to break off as often as possible) and it is made worse by the increase in cost.
Simon, it worries me that pretty much every time we discuss chariots you get the details wrong. Battlechariots were previously +2 in impact, not +1. Many troops may fight three rounds of melee per impact as you claim but properly generalled chariots with shoot and charge do not! Impact factors are more points effective for chariots, not melee ones.
All the talk of softening the blow through various methods has amounted to nothing. In fact the lists have made it even worse than anticipated.
Martin
Let's take any further debate of line Martin.
The team has put such a massive 100s of hours of effort into everything and not everything that changes in 650 lists is going to appeal to all 1000 players... it is the nature of things I'm afraid.
Sorry you are frustrated, but having met you and chatter to you at MoaB I am sure you will be equally dangerous with a whole range of other armies.
Si
PS can I borrow your Chinese for CanCon as I rather like the new version ... each to their own. ;)
Ok, no more debate, just memes for the visual learners out there!
Martin
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;D ;D ;D
Wait until we do the meme about Marty ...
Si
I find making them strangely therapeutic.
Martin
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Ok you can stop now and wait for ours ... ;D ;D ;D ;D