For the peace of mind of referee's, could you add a complete diagram for the new flank charge rule .
Yes there are already discussions on how to play it . The main problem being the 1 MU X 1 MU space...so why if I am behind the target at 1/2 MU would it not be a flank or rear charge
Already done. Here it is as will help to explain.
Very simple. Only purpose is to stop the cheesy flank charge ...
Is it clear enough. Adding a fair few diagrams to the rules.
S
[attachment deleted by admin]
there is a spelling mistake in the diagram
also why can "therefore 2" not hit the Gallics in the flank and fight on the flank as the front edge is entirely behind the Gallic flank and the unit is more then 1 MU away?
also
the green unit can be skirmishers?
Hi Jilu
Rather ill at present so may not be at my best ... but bored silly so answering anyway ;)
Dark green would have to be non-skirmishers TuG.
In main text already, but I'll add the precision to the finalised diagram thank you
All being done one next 2 weeks.
Therefore 2 says it could physically do so, but it won't get flank charge benefits due to the existence of the dark green troops.
The conditions are those under which you get to claim a flank charge bonus. Not worth doing therefore so I doubt anyone will ever bother as suicide.
Other option is perhaps to ban the contact altogether. But I'm a little cautious of that as it may create situations where it obstructs contact at all.
For instance, what if troops charging the dark green have to contact the flank of the light green to hit them ....
Si
PS whole thing is actually to stop the one perverse piece of cheese I don't like which is people charging flanks from just behind the line when there are other friends very near. I don't have an issue if there is some space to do so as everything in reality is simultaneous, so being past the line is far enough for me. But there is a gamey engineered version that can get +4s that are not so sensible that one or two pros in the Uk have spotted.
Ok in the interests of clarity, here is a fuller version so you can see what you think.
1) First there have I think been some mistakes in understanding of the rules as regards how you can protect flanks. It has been this way since day 1, but I think a number of people have missed it, so adding a diagram. I noticed this umpiring a few times.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49018759412_65a1f94595_b.jpg)
2) The new charge rule is the simplest added condition I could find to get rid of some rather cheesy and abusive charges. Here it is a bit more refined. Actually very simple.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49018035578_d78c85d772_b.jpg)
3) you cannot ban contact on a flank edge because of this situation, or the main charge would be blocked from making contact. This is why its allowed but will be a frontal fight.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49018759527_597675c4dd_b.jpg)
Si
After looking at this, I think I now understand how this works for the first time. Huzzah! I shall tell all my friends! My non-Wargaming friends might be a bit confused.
muuuuch better
Good
We aim to please.
Doing more diagrams in the new book space permitting as they do speak 1000 words.
Cheese eradicated by KISS means.
S
On the first diagram it is mentioned « a common mistake » mentioning that the player with 2 base in contact choose which one he fight with.
I have a few questions (assuming the flanker is over the 1bw distance as per new rules)
1/ the charger in blue has a file touching the Gallic on the flank and the unit protecting the flank.
Blue player could therefore chose to fight the Gallic on flank, right?
2/ if I am in situation
__AAAA
11112222
With A Base in contact with base 1 and base 2.
Player with number can choose which base fight A.
But player with A can choose if he fights 1 or 2 or is he forced to fight the one player with numbers selected?
Thx for confirming as I start doubting myself now.
Cheers
Simon, it has been consistently ruled at UK tournaments that the ACTIVE player choses the file to fight. Therefore in your example above there would be no flank protection if the Blue Player was the active player.
If this is not the case can you please make sure UK umpires are aware of this.
Thanks
Ray
UK Tournament Ambassador
Interesting. Diagrams really do paint a 1000 words...
Maybe this is why there have been so many funny flank charges in the UK without me knowing which wouldn't be the case had I been umpiring personally.
I certainly ruled it as above in all games I umpired - including at Skulls last year.
So if blue is active and has first choice then
option a) they choose the blue file on the left to fight - as is their right.
Then page 83 6.1 takes over.
Opponent choose the fontal one obviously.
option b) the blue player choose the file on the right.
Then page 83 6.1 takes over.
Opponent choose the fontal one to the right.
Thereby leaving the one on the left free to fight the other one.
Maybe the rules as deliberately drafted didn't have the cheesy loophole after all? ;). Anyway sorted now I assume.
Si
Quote from: Rino on November 06, 2019, 10:58:31 AM
On the first diagram it is mentioned « a common mistake » mentioning that the player with 2 base in contact choose which one he fight with.
I have a few questions (assuming the flanker is over the 1bw distance as per new rules)
1/ the charger in blue has a file touching the Gallic on the flank and the unit protecting the flank.
Blue player could therefore chose to fight the Gallic on flank, right?
2/ if I am in situation
__AAAA
11112222
With A Base in contact with base 1 and base 2.
Player with number can choose which base fight A.
But player with A can choose if he fights 1 or 2 or is he forced to fight the one player with numbers selected?
Thx for confirming as I start doubting myself now.
Cheers
As has always been ...
Page 83 6.1. A file only fights ones with its front edge to front or rear. so if two files are in contact with it then the player with the 2 files chooses which on to fight with.You being active lets you choose which file
you fight with. The opponent get to choose which one fights back if there are two - otherwise the above has no purpose.
Thanks Simon, then as part of question 1 nothing refrain the blue player to fight against the Gallic troops as flank attacking as long as the 1 BW rule is respected, right?
No you can't intuit scenario.
You only get to pick he file you want to fight with.
Then the opponent gets to pick which of the two files it is in contact with fights back.
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on November 06, 2019, 06:10:37 PM
No you can't intuit scenario.
You only get to pick he file you want to fight with.
Then the opponent gets to pick which of the two files it is in contact with fights back.
Si
Thx for the clarification. I get it now.
There is a real advantage in having 2 bases contacting one then.
I believe having it put in black and white would be helpful as it is not intuitive.
A pleasure.
With hindsight I needed to have a diagram to bring out the big implications.
Had I known people had not done it this way I would have done so.
Alas one can only clear up am conclusion once you know one exists.
And it is in black and white in the rules as has been - and unchanged - since day 1.
But I did rule it this way at every Uk tournament I was at ...
... and watched people doing it right it many bother situations.
Such as
XXXYYYZZZ
AAABBB
Everyone was happily picking ZZZ if was to their advantage in this situation ....
.... so I'm afraid it never twigged to me until recently that people were not doing so when it happened that ZZZ was touching a flank as well.
I'll do some more diagrams of the odder situations for 2 bases vs. 1 for the new book. Should clear them all up.
Si
Can you choose B vs Z in one phase and switch to B vs Y in another. In particular if your opponent chooses B vs Z but you don't like that much so when its your turn you make the switch?
HH
Simon,
In your example, let's imagine I m player AB. I have massive advantages playing Z instead of X.
When I m picking the file should I pick one of my file (then B and my opponent select X to fight) or can I pick the opponent file (Z in that case forcing my opponent fighting B)?
Subsequent question. I fought Z and triggered a shove. The next files to fight have to be Y and A, right?
Thanks for confirming (especially the first part).
So far when a file was selected we have done : « you fight who you want and I fight who I want ». What you mentioned shows that it works differently
Quote from: badhabum on November 02, 2019, 11:42:50 AM
For the peace of mind of referee's, could you add a complete diagram for the new flank charge rule .
Yes there are already discussions on how to play it . The main problem being the 1 MU X 1 MU space...so why if I am behind the target at 1/2 MU would it not be a flank or rear charge
And We have still no answer to my last phrase : what happens if I am clearly on the flank and there is only a distance of 3/4 of a MU or if I am in the rear of the ennemy unit and within less than one MU ? is it still a flank or rear charge?
Now image this : I move and get to the rear of flank of the ennemy ab-nd I am 1 1/2 MU from it . Now the ennemy moves backwards and the distance becomes less than 1 MU ...is is possible and cheesy or not ?
Assuming I understand what you are asking - the 1BW x 1BE space has to be free of enemy TUG bases (basically) so whether your base is in it it doesn't affect whether there can be a flank/rear charge.
What Nick said.
Simpler that you are trying to make it.
If you can't put a square down next to the base contacted as shown without touching an enemy TuG front edge or corner it won't count as a +4 flank charge, and will fight enemy frontally.
Full stop, the end, that's it.
Si
Quote from: Rino on November 07, 2019, 08:17:26 AM
Simon,
In your example, let's imagine I m player AB. I have massive advantages playing Z instead of X.
When I m picking the file should I pick one of my file (then B and my opponent select X to fight) or can I pick the opponent file (Z in that case forcing my opponent fighting B)?
Subsequent question. I fought Z and triggered a shove. The next files to fight have to be Y and A, right?
Thanks for confirming (especially the first part).
So far when a file was selected we have done : « you fight who you want and I fight who I want ». What you mentioned shows that it works differently
And on this one?
No you get to pick your file to fight first.
Of course if all aligned the same thing.
The fact they have more bases than you will give them the choices - unless you align before combat of course (which you may not be able to do the way you want to if you have hit something).
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on November 07, 2019, 03:52:28 PM
What Nick said.
Simpler that you are trying to make it.
If you can't put a square down next to the base contacted as shown without touching an enemy TuG front edge or corner it won't count as a +4 flank charge, and will fight enemy frontally.
Full stop, the end, that's it.
Si
so to be clear..to have the +4 flank charge you may not touch the front edge corner of the target if within 1 MU
and if you fight frontally, what happens in the combat phase ? keep being in the front or it becomes flank, if the enemy does not turn bases..?
To be more precise than your question .....
You can only claim a flank charge at all if there is a 1BW square space that does not touch a front edge or corner as the first part of an enemy TuG base.
Thus all other rules then apply as is:
a) you cannot claim an flank pluses
b) you fight the enemy file frontally with all the effects that has on claims - so cancels CL if pikes
c) it cannot then become a flank contact, only a supporting file or a frontal fight
Does that help? I can see its a first language to second language issue so will try in French if not.
We definitely will do a. French, German etc. translation PDF of the rules now totally stabilised if people are willing to assist.
S
But you bare missing part of my question : and what about a rear charge ?
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on November 08, 2019, 06:24:56 AM
To be more precise than your question .....
You can only claim a flank charge at all if there is a 1BW square space that does not touch a front edge or corner as the first part of an enemy TuG base.
Thus all other rules then apply as is:
a) you cannot claim an flank pluses
b) you fight the enemy file frontally with all the effects that has on claims - so cancels CL if pikes
c) it cannot then become a flank contact, only a supporting file or a frontal fight
Does that help? I can see its a first language to second language issue so will try in French if not.
We definitely will do a. French, German etc. translation PDF of the rules now totally stabilised if people are willing to assist.
S
this cristal clear
Thank you. And good to hear. Always happy to do so.
Si
The flank rules are OK . But one of my question remains : what about rear charges ? will it also be necessary to have a ONE MU gap/distance from the target ?
Also what happens if a TUG is partly to the rear of an ennemy TUG and partly on the rear flank and to make it complete within one MU ?
As the actual rules section is Flank/Rear Charges I'd expect the same to apply to both for simplicity's sake.
Same principle for all flank/rear charges.
Its combined concept in the rules with no different between them.
Just puts the 1BW square in a different places.
Will augment the diagram to cover it.
Si
a consequence of rearcharges :
troops who feel a rear charge end up facing the charger?
Quote from: Jilu on November 10, 2019, 01:21:38 PM
a consequence of rearcharges :
troops who feel a rear charge end up facing the charger?
sorry I don't understand the question.
S
me neither..
;D ;D :D ;D
Expecting is not the same as written solid black on white .
If a unit approaches to the rear and is 2 MU away from it's target and the target is already facing another ennemy we might end with the following :
The target moves 1,1 MU to the rear and so is less than 1 MU from the charger in it's rear . I f we follow current rule as described, the rear charge becomes a frontal charge ...
And the same unit is charged to the front ...it is sandwiched but both charges would be frontal ..; I would really be curious, to know how to resolve it .
Cheesy things can happen
Quote from: badhabum on November 12, 2019, 01:11:05 PM
Expecting is not the same as written solid black on white .
If a unit approaches to the rear and is 2 MU away from it's target and the target is already facing another ennemy we might end with the following :
The target moves 1,1 MU to the rear and so is less than 1 MU from the charger in it's rear . I f we follow current rule as described, the rear charge becomes a frontal charge ...
And the same unit is charged to the front ...it is sandwiched but both charges would be frontal ..; I would really be curious, to know how to resolve it .
Cheesy things can happen
Unless I have completely misunderstood what you are saying, I think you have misunderstood the rule. The new rule doesn't affect the rear charge.
Doing this with pictures to make sure we're getting it right.
If I understand correctly Jacques is talking about something like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/8RmsHIh.jpg?1)
Blue units are one side, the red is the other. One blue unit has moved to 2BW behind the red unit.
Jacques is asking what happens if the red unit now falls back towards the unit behind it so that it is now within 1BW:
(https://i.imgur.com/eUCpL0Y.jpg?1)
Jacques thinks that if the blue unit which is behind the red now charges the red unit the charge does not count as a rear charge, presumably because the blue bases are within the 1BW x 1BW space required for a flank/rear charge. However, the rule (as I read it) only talks about enemy TUG bases (from the chargers viewpoint) being within that area and not you own. Therefore, it is a rear charge 8)
It's not an issue bit I will fix it with a diagram expansion to be super clear.
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on November 10, 2019, 12:21:57 PM
Same principle for all flank/rear charges.
Its combined concept in the rules with no different between them.
Just puts the 1BW square in a different places.
Will augment the diagram to cover it.
Si
I misunderstood because of the explanation that I quote.It states : Same principle for all flank/rear charges.
Hence my questioning
i am trialing the new flank charge rules and finding the 1 base width square rule, in some situations not realistic, i have attached pictures illustrating Charging lancers breaking my archers (and my Line!) ending up behind the flank of two of my units, i wanted to turn one unit and charge the flank next time, under new rules this would not be allowed ????
[attachment deleted by admin]
As far as I can see in the last picture there is nothing in the new rule stopping the infantry charging the flank of the cavalry. What makes you think it cannot charge?
they don't have a 1 base width square between them and the flank
The requirement isn't that there is an empty 1BW square, but a 1BW square that doesn't have any enemy TUG bases in or touching it. Your own bases are irrelevant.
I think some of the discussion above your question goes through this :)
ahhh thanks for the clarification ;)
Suspect its one that will be asked a few times 8)
And just to add its an enemy front-edge or front-corner that would be in or touching the 1BW square.
S
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 07, 2019, 12:10:24 PM
Suspect its one that will be asked a few times 8)
Quite right because I also thought as Roger and from discussions here, we all did ....So a very very neat diagram with many possibilities will be needed ...or many diagrams ;D
oh go on then ... ;)