Middle Sassanid
The army composition was
1 instinctive talented CIC
2 instinctive sub
1 talented ally sabir
Bow cavalry :
all formed close
1 X 6 and 1 x 4 formed loose experienced bow + spear average
1 X 6 the same but superior
Cataphracts
2 x 4 sup, cats, shove, devastating chargers, long spear
1 X 6, the same but average
Ally
Formed flexible, average unarmored, bow
1 x 6 Expeienced bow
2 x 6 skilled bow .
the usual deployment was the ally on a flank, the bow cavalry on the other and the heavies near the center to the rear . ( I was regularly outscouted even by infantry based armies.
I use done of the 2 Competent commanders to take charge of either one sup cats ( for impact ) or the sub bow unit ( for manoeuver ) the decision being made at the beginning of the game.
Game 1 vs later republican romans.
I faced Julis himself; A full 8 bases legio exceptionnal . 2x 8 sup, 2 x 8 average + 2 x 4 cavalry , melee expert .
Thanks to the lack of missile oposition, the Sabir managed to hold in check the right roman flank while the average bow cavalry held the center ( facing the Xth ) and the heavies rushed to the roman left flank with the sup bow turning the roman left flank.
A first charge of the cats and hurray ,a flank charge of the sup bow and one ennemy legion is down ( average ) and no loss for me . The door is open . I destroy one ennemy CAV unit, keep some romans very busy with the cats while the Xth get surrounded . Mobility and command were decisive as I went around most legions. It will end as a 15-0 to me .
The Cats were the deciding factor , the missile cavalry being rather impotent the romans having shield cover . But the lone general commanding the sup bows also played a very important role, being mobile they threatened flanks, bloked ennemy units and so on .
Next game vs Eastern Han with southern Xiongnu 100% cavalry
So I faced an ennemy with some mounted crossbow, shoot and charge + polearm, tribal mounted bow, some mounted bow + melee expert .
A difficult battle in perspective as he shoots at me when he charges ( he did a lot ) and if I survived impact, my bows would systematicaly be on white vs green dut to his polearm or melee expert . So I had to choose where to put my cataphracts, the ones who could make the difference. I was also heavily outscouted .
So back to traditionnal deployment, Sabir on my right, bow cavalry to the right and the heavies frontaly to the center with 2 of my generals.
Bruno made one mistake, he tried a flank march which will arrive but to late .
I launched my heavies towards his feeble line of bow cavalry, tried to win time on my right and kill him with skilled fire on my left .
It was a massacre and my right flank managed to hold just in time for the cataphract to come back to the rescue after having destroyed a few ennemy units in the center and helped the Sabir to survive . But anyway, the right failed to hold but endgame time so 11 for me and 10 for Bruno . We were both on the brink of demoralization but held just long enough to avoid it .
The bowhorsemen were outclassed and the cataphracts once again did the job
So on sunday morning I faced Frederic Dufour a very good french player and his 5 Hegemon army.
Having battle chariots and loose infantry, he went for terrain but failed in the center where I managed to put some uneven terrain, good for my cavalry, bad for his chariots. As he divided his forces, I tried to kill some of his superior chariots with the skilled Sabir, but failed even when I had 6 dice ...But on the right flank where the cats did run towards to face most of his chariotry, I managed by a combination of Cataphracts and one superior bow cavalry unit to take his chariotry out , albeit at the cost of the average cataphract unit . I went to his camp but in the center and my left flank I was repulsed and lost heavily .
The battle ended due to lack of time ( partially my fault, I mismanaged the end being unwell ) and so 10-10 .
So I faced the New kingdom army , wandering how much fire I would manage to take before contact.
I changed my deployment tactics and deployed my cataphracts on my left, the Sabir in the center and the bow asvarans on my right.
Terrain was open in the center nbut not on the flanks.
With the 3 cataphracts units I just went forward and latter charged the NKE chariots who were there and managed to catch one in the back . My superior bow asvaran unit managed on the other flank to reach the Nubians without them being able to shoot and destroyed them rather quickly .
In the center, my shooting was better and NKE chariotry suffered a great deal. But melee was difficult for me I had luck and lost no one there but had 3 units near death at the end of the game.
The NKE never had a ghost of a chance to stop the cataphracts. he was mostly on black dice vs the heavies and lost his army .
15-0
Bruno and Frederic, the first and second of the tournament, having fought each other to a standstill, without many points, I won the tournament.
So a bow cavalry army cannot win a game if it has no other options such as some skliied bows ( which I had ) and some strike power ( which I had with the cataphracts ) . Without the cataphracts, I would never have been able to win a game, if only because shooting takes time and facing an army with all mounted and melee expert or polearm if pretty tough ..a loosing battle.
So I think some armies need to be rebalanced .
And do not worry, battlechariots are pretty tough .
Your suggestions always welcome....
Si
It is a bit difficult to make some overall suggestions. We should, I think, have a look list by list. I made a suggestion concerning the early byzantines earlier . It is part of my solution and based on historical texts.
Now a bow cavalry army will have difficulties to "end a game" or even "win in time" with only white dice . You nedd a +
Parthians have light cavalry AND cataphracts for the punch . NKE are "skilled" and superior which helps . Huns have some superior protected and melee expert TUGS + shoot and charge and it helps ..
In short , you need something to help . My concern is mounted bow armies with no melee expert and no real shock units and by shock, I mean TUGs that can fight on the long term or shoot to kill with green dice ( hope to kill ) . It is my opinion and to me cantabrian is not a good solution as it is mainly for SUGs and the chance to get caught is too high to make it efficient enough.
Do not change all lists, but when I have time I can have a look . Seljuk Great Empire is, from memory, one of those armies that shoots but has no staying power when facing a good melee army . You run, and rune ...but inevitably you will get caught ..
Today we had a test game between Frisians with feudal german ally vs Ottoman turcs ( before 1453 BCE ). We tried a 3 hours game and failed to finish the battle . Shooting took too long . The bow cavalry shooting did not much. The jannissaries took their toll but I managed to get to grip with them . Anyway time was there game unfinished.
Experienced bow cavalry do have a hard time without some muscles to help. More shooting units will not change much and that is the only thing you will get by lowering the mounted bow price.
so it gets a bit better bit is not ans easy game.
As I said the mistake of FoG was to make HQ armies too easy to win with.
Target accomplished.
What was the score?
I want that game to be advantage Frisians unless the Ottoman Turkish player is a better player.
S
6-4 for the frisians at the end of the game ( survival included ) . The Feudal germans had managed to break trough and would have rolled the entire ottoman line but as written : time was of essence .
So, a shooty army needs some punch to help .
Which is ideal as it avoids the FoG syndrome.
Good player with added punch and it works.
An average player even with the punch will struggle.
Great player who is an expert in the army can do it without.
(Not judging whether you are Good or Great Jacques - clearly one of the two)
What we want. Spot on target.
FoG (1 and 2 at least) by contrast....
Mr Genius with Dacian vs Mr Idiot with Ottomans = 90% in favour of the idiot!
Hence all players that care about winning comps used shooty cacv armies as very safe and very dangerous.
Those who like their history take their favourite foot armies and live with draws and small losses... dull.
Not wanting that ever.
Si
QuoteGood player with added punch and it works
The punch needs to be present in the army list which is not always the case ...beware
If you need the punch (and most of us do) then don't pick an army without it - simples ;D
One idea I've heard regarding the horse archer/slowing through fire problem is to keep the push through fire rules as they are but eliminate the +1 in charge combat vs cavalry that shot. This would make getting caught while skirmishing a bit less catastrophic, and make a break off after combat more like a real possibility. It would avoid changes to the foot bow vs charging foot interaction while helping horse archers against charging lancers, the most problematic interaction. Just my $.02.
Quote from: AntiokosIII on September 12, 2019, 06:41:41 PM
One idea I've heard regarding the horse archer/slowing through fire problem is to keep the push through fire rules as they are but eliminate the +1 in charge combat vs cavalry that shot. This would make getting caught while skirmishing a bit less catastrophic, and make a break off after combat more like a real possibility. It would avoid changes to the foot bow vs charging foot interaction while helping horse archers against charging lancers, the most problematic interaction. Just my $.02.
The changes to the foot interaction are seen as desirable. Whilst the cavalry interactions are the "poster boy" for the prompt through fire change, they are not the whole reason for going down that route.
I have not been aware of a problem with foot bow vs charging foot. I would welcome enlightenment.
There hasn't been a problem, as long as you are the charging foot ;D
'Normal' foot archers (ie without skilled shooting, combat capabilities, mixed units, etc) barely exist in competitive MeG.
Martin
Indeed. Change in part is seeking to encourage a bit more without them being too good.
S
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 12, 2019, 05:47:54 PM
If you need the punch (and most of us do) then don't pick an army without it - simples ;D
Actually, I'd add that a chunk of "stodge" can also work wonders in a basically shooty cavalry army - basically something the opponent can't just push around.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 14, 2019, 07:47:16 AM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 12, 2019, 05:47:54 PM
If you need the punch (and most of us do) then don't pick an army without it - simples ;D
Actually, I'd add that a chunk of "stodge" can also work wonders in a basically shooty cavalry army - basically something the opponent can't just push around.
I think I understand the meaning of the chunk of stodge- but not sure 100% - . If, as you write, we should choose not to pick an army without "punch" , then stop creating some . The rules work well but do the rules work in a 3 hour tournament . My answer would be yes and no . If the 2 players go for it , then it works. But with shooty armies on white dice, time is a bit short as you need time to roll the dice, wounds can be healed and so on.... Youn can weaken an army, but difficult to finish it . I am painting one of my favourite armies, the early byzantines. But it lacks the punch needed in a tournament . I made a proposal based on many reading and we will see what happens in 2020 . 8) . Now I am not the only one to think shooty mounted bows need something to go on . At Britcon, I was winning the first game after 3 hours, lost after something like 4 hours ( friday night ) and I faced some skilled shooters ::). But the game was fun.
So
I cert agree that the shooty Cavalry armies need a heavyweight unit. At the recent London GT, Richard won the event with Timurid s and Nik came 3rd with Sassanids. Both had Elephants, to deliver the punch. I just wish I was good enough to use them.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on September 13, 2019, 03:12:14 PM
Indeed. Change in part is seeking to encourage a bit more without them being too good.
S
And the American armies with every man a shooter? They'll be getting slows all along the line. Shoot and charge troops will also be supreme skirmisher killers - even better than they already are. Will be interesting to see the result of this change. Once it's in it will be there for years...
We will see. Only a few more days to wait . Shoot and charge can make for a bad day for skirmishers but then you must adapt and perhaps choose fleeing or position your skirmishing cavalry a little bit better . Which is not always an easy feat.
In 2017, with nikephorians, I used the shoot and charge to get at skirmishing cavalry more than once .
FWIW on of my most successful cavalry based armies was a Gallic with maximum average cavalry in 6s.
3x6 and 2x4 caused mayhem on a wing. by sheer weight of numbers.
S
Yes but you also had some warbands that can just glue the enemy . It's not the same .
Of course not total cavalry.
But serious chunk of stodge flank.
S