Noticed this when looking at the Late Sasanid list with an eye to Armenian ally.
In the Syria and Asian Minor set the contents has the dates for the Armenian list as 330 BCE to 252 CE, however, the list itself says 330 BCE to 627 CE.
The Rshtuni Armenian in the Byzantine set has dates of 638 CE to 705 CE.
I assume the former should run to the start of the latter.
Heraclius conquered the Persian part of Armenia in 627 CE. It was a Byzantine possession until the Arabs sacked the country in 638 or 639 CE. Prince Theodoros Rshtuni organised resistance against the Arabs. Hence the gap in the dates.
The Late Sassanid list doesn't get Armenian allies so I am a bit confused as to why this cropped up, but thanks for pointing out the error. I will correct it in the 2020 lists.
Richard
IIRC my query came up because I was thinking that the Later Sasanid should have an Armenian ally - looking at the draft list I did back in 2017 I included an Armenian ally to 643 CE. Thus which list you'd use between 627 CE and 638 CE becomes relevant.
When and where did the Persians have an Armenian ally between these dates? I cannot find a reference to an Armenian ally in any of the Persian battles of this period.
Armenia had been overrun by the Romans and the Turks. It seems unlikely to have been in a position to supply an allied army.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on July 08, 2019, 04:26:40 PM
When and where did the Persians have an Armenian ally between these dates?
Are you trying to make me re-read Sebos :o ;D
Quote
I cannot find a reference to an Armenian ally in any of the Persian battles of this period.
Armenia had been overrun by the Romans and the Turks. It seems unlikely to have been in a position to supply an allied army.
I think when I drafted the various Sasanid lists I went with dates for allies that were not overly specific; after all I think that is what is generally done in the lists anyway - with almost all the allies which have a date range there is no way and no evidence that an allied army was supplied every year within the date range.
Additionally I think saying that Armenia was overrun by the Romans and Turks rather exaggerates. The Turks came, did a bit and buggered off again pretty sharpish. Heraclius campaigned in Armenia, kicked the Persians out but as far as I have been able to discover (reading a bit on this recently) he didn't actually do that much in relation to setting up anything in Armenia and it remained pretty independent and fictionalised.
However, whatever you want to do about the dates the Later Sasanid needs a Armenian ally - I'll see if I can dig you out a date for it to start from :)
OK, despite being away in Cornwall I happen to have Pourshariati's "Decline and Fall of the Sasanian Empire" with me (as you do).
She mentions that in 634 CE an Armenian contingent was sent to fight the Arabs with the Persian army. It didn't make it in time to cooperate and the Persians were defeated at the Battle of Kaskar. The Armenians were under one "Jalinus" - however, it looks as though it isn't 100% that he was an Armenian, so its a bit uncertain at that date.
637 CE, however, we have Armenians under Khusrow Shenum/Khusrow-Shum a.k.a. Varaztirots Bagratuni. So that date could be a good one to use. He is still commanding Armenians in 643 CE which is the last time they are mentioned in Sasanid armies I believe.
I had previously mentioned it here - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=445.msg3270#msg3270 - apologies for having stuff in 2 posts that would be better in one :P
Quote from: nikgaukroger on July 08, 2019, 07:13:26 PM
OK, despite being away in Cornwall I happen to have Pourshariati's "Decline and Fall of the Sasanian Empire" with me (as you do).
She mentions that in 634 CE an Armenian contingent was sent to fight the Arabs with the Persian army. It didn't make it in time to cooperate and the Persians were defeated at the Battle of Kaskar. The Armenians were under one "Jalinus" - however, it looks as though it isn't 100% that he was an Armenian, so its a bit uncertain at that date.
637 CE, however, we have Armenians under Khusrow Shenum/Khusrow-Shum a.k.a. Varaztirots Bagratuni. So that date could be a good one to use. He is still commanding Armenians in 643 CE which is the last time they are mentioned in Sasanid armies I believe.
I had previously mentioned it here - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=445.msg3270#msg3270 - apologies for having stuff in 2 posts that would be better in one :P
Can't you take Fifty Shades of Grey with you like everyone else?
Nik,
Thanks for this.
The question in my mind is whether these are allies or should they be a contingent under their own sub-general. My guess is that these contingents would be from the part of Armenia that had been under Sasanid control for at least 80 years. If allies I would use the earlier list, but maybe they should be a contingent.
The role of Armenians in Sassanid armies looks as if it could be explored further.
Richard
I've generally gone for the view that they are allies given the rather fractious nature of the Armenians :D The exception being the period when one Armenian leader was given command of an important ally - the Armenians in the main list in the Sasanid list.
Its certainly an area that could be looked into further.