Tugs can displace friendly sugs by the minimum to make room, but what happens if there's no space because of other units?
What about displacing backwards through the unit causing the displacement? That would be a passing through move on reality. Is it allowed? Would it cause a kab?
1. If there isn't room, you can't displace it. Seems self-evident really. This is however very rare.
2. Displacing can be in any direction, as long as it is the minimum to allow the TuG to move and the other conditions (page 68) are met. No KaBs are involved.
Thanks for the help but it's still very unclear.
You state that if there is no room it cannot be displaced, but then go on to reference passing through moves (interpenetration) from page 68 but say that there are no KaB tests.
So let us say that my TUG of cavalry withes to displace a SUG of friendly skirmishing cavalry.
Typically this would be no problem and the SUG would move by the minimum in the direction I select if there is an option, with no reference at all to passing through, correct?
Now, if the SUG in question cannot love left or right because of other friendly SUGs and cannot move far enough forward to fit because of the enemy, then the only place it could go is backwards through my TUG.
That seems to be allowable as it is the minimun to fit, but then since KaB tests are irrelevant for this rule why the reference to page 68 ?
Sorry, I think I understand your confusion.
I don't refer to interpenetrations at all. Page 68 is referring to 9.3 G - Displacing Friendly SuGs. There is no mention of KaB tests on page 68.
Page 65, 9.3 D 1.1.2 makes it very clear that a TuG can displace a friendly SuG and move through it.
Page 66, 9.3 D 2 does imply that if you pass through a friendly mounted SuG with a TuG of cavalry then it would cause a KaB test. 9.3 D 3 (page 66 again) however does not cover who should get a KaB test.
KaB tests are mentioned on page 66 (9.3 D.3 in relation to passing through friends. This however is referring to Run Aways, Skirmishes, Routs or Forced Charges. I have always found it odd that KaB tests are included here as none of these occurs during the movement phase (which is what 9.3 is all about).
So I think you do have a valid point - does a mounted SuG displaced and passed through by a TuG cause a KaB test and if so on whom? It is unfortunate that the examples in the rules do not cover this situation. A query for Simon...
p.s. The reason I haven't spotted this before is that I am usually very careful to avoid getting my mounted SuGs trapped in front of TuGs.
As far as I can see, the rules are very clear.
Yes, I think the rules are clear and I am reading more into them than they actually say.
As written, I can displace a SUG through a moving TUG and there is no KaB test involved.
The question is, should that be allowed.
Yes in the movement phase. I decided it was part of the philosophy of SuGs not driving the main battle.
But not in Charge phase as they give too much free cover to attackers.
So all as written. ;) :D
Thank you Simon, all very clear and as written, as you say.
Now to see if I can finally win with my accursed Parthians before list entry for Skullrollers...
May a skirmishing or fleing TUG displace an ennemy SUG while "fleeing" ?
Does a TuG skirmish or flee in the movement phase?
No but the question comes always back in a trounament so ...an official clary might be needed to make people understand how it should be played.
I am not sure of the answer myself as so many things have been written :-)
Some questions always come back so a FAQ or better more exemples would be needed
IMO it is pretty clear.
The rules say you can push back enemy SUGs in the movement phase.
Skirmish and Run Away moves by TUGs happen in the charge phase.
Ergo ...
Yes but... For some people I need it written plainly ... discussions always discussions
It is plain.
I suggest a pollax to the face for those who think otherwise :o ;D
Pole axe to the face sounds harsh. Perhaps a large sock filled with fresh manure?
It is a move only allowed in the MOVEMENT PHASE.
Is that clear enough?
S
Yes.
HH
YES ( Simon wrote it so ...no discussion - how I hate it )
Quote from: lionheartrjc on May 22, 2019, 08:13:21 PM
Sorry, I think I understand your confusion.
I don't refer to interpenetrations at all. Page 68 is referring to 9.3 G - Displacing Friendly SuGs. There is no mention of KaB tests on page 68.
Page 65, 9.3 D 1.1.2 makes it very clear that a TuG can displace a friendly SuG and move through it.
Page 66, 9.3 D 2 does imply that if you pass through a friendly mounted SuG with a TuG of cavalry then it would cause a KaB test. 9.3 D 3 (page 66 again) however does not cover who should get a KaB test.
KaB tests are mentioned on page 66 (9.3 D.3 in relation to passing through friends. This however is referring to Run Aways, Skirmishes, Routs or Forced Charges. I have always found it odd that KaB tests are included here as none of these occurs during the movement phase (which is what 9.3 is all about).
So I think you do have a valid point - does a mounted SuG displaced and passed through by a TuG cause a KaB test and if so on whom? It is unfortunate that the examples in the rules do not cover this situation. A query for Simon...
p.s. The reason I haven't spotted this before is that I am usually very careful to avoid getting my mounted SuGs trapped in front of TuGs.
As far as I can see, the rules are very clear.
I don't think this is clear.
"Page 65, 9.3 D 1.1.2 makes it very clear that a TuG can displace a friendly SuG and move through it."
Two lines before this it says "If allowed as a prompted action:" The only moves "allowed" are under 2.1-3 on p.66. Foot SUGs, artillery and special rules.
Where does it say it is allowed to pass through mounted SUGs? The reference to displacing and passing through a friendly SUG in D 1.1.2 refers to "allowed" passing through moves, which would seem to be foot SUGs only.
Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .
So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests
sometimes it is not possible to move the sug prior to a charge or due to lack of space
Quote from: badhabum on June 17, 2019, 11:49:58 AM
Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .
So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests
Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere. ;D
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on June 19, 2019, 09:33:39 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 17, 2019, 11:49:58 AM
Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .
So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests
Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere. ;D
Doesn't this contradict earlier when you said that mounted SUGs can pass through mounted TUGs in the movement phase, when the only moves allowed in the rules are foot SUGs, artillery and special cases (as per 2 on p. 66), which don't cause KABs, and in 3 which outlines the cases where KABs apply?
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on June 19, 2019, 09:33:39 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 17, 2019, 11:49:58 AM
Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .
So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests
Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere. ;D
Well .... due to my line of work I learned that, for exemple, it is not forbidden to murder someone, but that if you murder someone, there is a penalty... but it is not forbidden :-)
bahdabum's right . Some have difficulties understanding that "movement phase" means "movement phase" and not "any time" .
especialy not in any oher occurence the TUG / SUG happens to change location.
Not sure how ths may be expressed to reduce occurence of issues... May I suggest to emphasis "Movement Phase only" bold and underline ...but i stll asume we will have to kick and shake some anyway. :-[
this a mindset issue inherited from other games may be not a thesaurus or words issue.
Quote from: craig.w on June 19, 2019, 10:46:07 AM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on June 19, 2019, 09:33:39 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 17, 2019, 11:49:58 AM
Interesting when you read it again . Nowhere is it forbidden to move trough a friendly unit . The only thing that is specified is on PG 66, which interpenetration do NOT cause a KAB .
So someone might argue indeed that you may prompt a move trough a friendly TUG ans take you chance with a few KAB tests
Rules say what is allowed not what isn't.
On that basis, you could also argue its legal to remove your opponents bases to make room for your troops - I don't say you cannot anywhere. ;D
Doesn't this contradict earlier when you said that mounted SUGs can pass through mounted TUGs in the movement phase, when the only moves allowed in the rules are foot SUGs, artillery and special cases (as per 2 on p. 66), which don't cause KABs, and in 3 which outlines the cases where KABs apply?
It would but I don't recall saying that. Rules only a,llow things through foot SuGs and Artillery full stop.
Everything else is outcome moves with KaB tests.
S
Ok, I'm confused then, it seemed like you were agreeing with Richard before. The initial query was about a TUG displacing a SUG backwards in the movement phase i.e. the TUG would in effect pass through the SUG. It then expanded into a question whether a mounted SUG could be displaced and if so whether there was a KAB test.
Only foot SUGs can be displaced backwards - is this correct?
Quote from: craig.w on June 22, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
Ok, I'm confused then, it seemed like you were agreeing with Richard before. The initial query was about a TUG displacing a SUG backwards in the movement phase i.e. the TUG would in effect pass through the SUG. It then expanded into a question whether a mounted SUG could be displaced and if so whether there was a KAB test.
Only foot SUGs can be displaced backwards - is this correct?
Yes these streams do branch off at times.
So:
a) A TuG may pass through a SuG un the movemeent phase and displace the SuG to make room - backwards is fine. If there is no room to displace the SuG then the interpenetration and displacement cannot happen.
b) Only foot SuGs can be displaced backward as the TuG moves to its new position and then displaces the SuG. As it cannot interpenetrate anything but a foot SuG it can't get to the position it wants to get to.
S
Heavy artillerie = foot sug, right?
:o
Yes they are.
Note to self to make it Foot SuGs except Hvy Artillery in 2020.
S
Re-read this just to be sure. The eventual outcome is totally different to on the first page of this thread when we thought mounted SUGs could be moved backwards.
Also, the outcome here doesn't appear to be recorded in the current clarifications file.
Very frustrating to read, discuss, re-read etc. to find that conclusions are overturned and clarifications are not recorded :/
This is a discussion stream so no clarries have been altered or updated or corrected at all.
Only if they hit the official clarries section.
So nothing to get frustrated about.
S
Quote from: stuuk on May 21, 2019, 07:55:14 PM
Tugs can displace friendly sugs by the minimum to make room, but what happens if there's no space because of other units?
What about displacing backwards through the unit causing the displacement? That would be a passing through move on reality. Is it allowed? Would it cause a kab?
So going back to the original as the stream has driged a bit.
Top line any type of SuG can be moved.
Bottom one is only possible if you can pass through the troops type.
Seems pretty clear and always has been ;)
QuoteTop line any type of SuG can be moved.
Bottom one is only possible if you can pass through the troops type.
Sorry be for me, non native english player, it is very difficult to follow this discussion . Can someone explain what should be done in simple plain language :-[
My problem comes from "bottom one .."
Bottom of the two questions ...
You can't displace something backwards if you can't go through it .... obviously.
Si
Ovious to me but not so obvious to some as this happens in other rules ( shoul I name some >:( ) . thanks for stating it .
Indeed. Always happy to clarify - even the largely obvious.
S
Sorry to be an arse. But. Just because you claim something is obvious doesn't make it so - hence the confusion within this thread including your previous answer to the question!
The rules must be within the rule book, clearly and easily discernible - much within MeG is not in the rule book, and this is not within the clarifications but should be - why do you think it should not be?
I know I keep banging on and on but the lack of clarity in the rule book is really costing you players.
Nobody at my club will play it largely because of this and I myself am getting annoyed with the to-ing and fro-ing as well.
Sorry, but it's better to be honest isn't it?
This type of thing may seem a small issue, but try playing with a force largely made up of SuGs - this then makes an enormous difference to the play of the game.
Try teaching the game but changing the way things work every time you play it - nothing puts off a new player faster.
Hi Suuk
Accepted and noted.
Should all be clearer in the new rulebook.
Its harder in practice where you have small playing pools.
The larger ones iron many things out themselves.
And remember there is no to-ing and fro-ing by me, which is what matters. Streams like these are merely discussing threads. There is only a clarry if its on the official pages. So if you locally use discussions on these threads as clarries it will appear confusing. Best avoided. I'm not sure I get the argument you can ride through mounted SuGs when the rules clearly state you can only go through foot SuGs though? I must be missing something.
This stream has rambled a fair bit and addled my brain for sure.... so I sympathise. Hence me posting that "simple" bit of the rules to try to refocus it.
Si
Si
Simon, bearing in mind this basic ruling - "You can't displace something backwards if you can't go through it"'
How can I get out of a situation like this:
The red enemy refuse to charge because this will allow the SuG horse archers to evade, clearing up the problem for this confused Parthian.
The SUGs are stuck - they cannot go forward and assume they cannot go left or right due to other SUGs.
They cannot voluntarily go back through the TuG cataphracts behind them either as not allowed as a prompted action
The TuGs equally cannot displace the horse archer SuGs - there is not room to move them, and they cannot displace them backwards as that would go through the cataphracts which is not allowed.
So here, unless I am missing something (and please tell me if i am!) the TuGs cannot get at the enemy and this is a traffic Jam that causes them more problem than the enemy causes them!
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If the catafracts are within 3BW you could let them forced charge through the horse archers - OK, IIRC, that will destroy the horse archers but you do get the catafracts at the enemy ...
Yes that is the only way under the current ruling.
Is that what Simon intends?
Alternatively the SuGs turn 90 and move away. Don't get stuck in this position!
That is not a possible option from the scenario I posited above.
Indeed it's a terrible position to get stuck in.
I really just want to know though if this is the designers intent.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on August 25, 2019, 10:38:50 AM
Don't get stuck in this position!
Well, quite. If you end up in such a mess I'd expect the way out to be tricky, costly in cards and/or highly sub-optimal :o
Really, why?
horse archer armies are hard enough to use already without extra things to remember. This is only doing exactly what we think they did - put the archers up front and then come in with the cats.
Do bear in mind that in this scenario the enemy holds all the cards - he can charge you, or displace you - both of which DO allow the horse archers to pass through the TuGs.
So why can I not do it to myself voluntarily?
Doesn't make a lot of sense IMHO.
Quote from: stuuk on August 25, 2019, 10:40:44 AM
I really just want to know though if this is the designers intent.
Can't see anything in the situation that would be unintentional.
Covered by a general principle of if you screw up badly it's going to hurt I think :P
See previous post - enemy can displace me, but I cannot displace myself - which seems odd.
Isn't it the same troops doing the same thing, just using two differing game mechanisms?
SuGs will ruin away from enemy bit not you... your guys are not going to kill them!
Not so odd.
Fair enough if this is how you intend it to work..
I do not think it's a good ruling but it is a ruling.
Stu.
That's not a ruling. Just explaining why the two don't have to be similar.
I have just scrolled up so can look at your scenario.
S
Quote from: stuuk on August 25, 2019, 10:37:30 AM
Yes that is the only way under the current ruling.
Is that what Simon intends?
Actual yes it is exactly the intent.
I see LF used a lot as screens in front of heavies but LH not so.
Therefore you need to be careful and leave the means for them to get away is sitting in front of the cataphracts.
In the same way I have kept the onus on players to be able to get skirmishers out of the way before charging.
So both put the emphasis on coordinating your SuGs and TuGs not to get in a mess.
FWIW I usually put the SUGs either at an angle or overlapping by 1/2BW so they can retire when ready.
S
S