Since we're in the rule review season I wanted to submit a couple of proposals for Skirmishers.
1) When a skirmisher is pushed back by a TuG they are allowed a round of shooting.
From a realism perspective skirmishers were used to resist an advance. An opponent can charge them off but that would put them at risk. Alternatively if advance more cautiously the skirmishers can withdraw slower and fire to greater effect.
From a gamer perspective I've put skirmishers in front of an infantry line (especially to resist horse archers) and my opponent simply advances to force them back through the infantry defeating the purpose. Allowing them to shoot when forced back like this would give them a chance to do a bit of harm before the main action starts.
2) I'm sure this will be more controversial but, remove the rule that SuGs are immediately picked up if they are contacted by TuGs.
Skirmishers were frequently used to oppose an advance. They wouldn't stop it, but they'd cause friction and slow it down. Under current rules they don't do that very well but if they could stand and resist for a turn that would represent their role on the field and give them a greater purpose in the game.
I'm not sure skirmishers were really used to resist an advance. I would suggest that in the main that they were usually withdrawn before the advance got anywhere close to the enemy. Therefore, I'd see any shooting as taking place somewhat away from the main lines with no last minute shoot and scoot. So I don't personally see a need to allow a shot if they are pushed back and end up behind something.
As for the instant removal this works well IMO.
I just noticed that the amendments make it impossible for foot skirmishers to clrear the way if they screen 4 rank deep pikes and they are themselves 3 rank deep to shoot . The turn and move 3 MU which is not enough to go trough the pikes but they could trough LS or SP 2 rank deep . Interesting
Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 20, 2025, 07:24:41 AMI'm not sure skirmishers were really used to resist an advance. I would suggest that in the main that they were usually withdrawn before the advance got anywhere close to the enemy.
I'm confused, then. Taking the rules at face value, it seemed to me that the design-intended way to use skirmishing foot is to place them in forward contact with the infantry line and use "tug a sug" to bring them forward.
Is the design-intended way to use foot SUGs actually to double-move them 4+ BW ahead of the main infantry line?
The rules seem like they wish to discourage this behavior, as opposing foot will then double-move to point blank range and force a run-away move from the sug, robbing them of their one turn to shoot effectively before being rendered vulnerable to being pushed through friends in the following movement phase.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 20, 2025, 07:24:41 AMI'm not sure skirmishers were really used to resist an advance. I would suggest that in the main that they were usually withdrawn before the advance got anywhere close to the enemy. Therefore, I'd see any shooting as taking place somewhat away from the main lines with no last minute shoot and scoot. So I don't personally see a need to allow a shot if they are pushed back and end up behind something.
I'm not sure I follow. Under the current rules resisting an advance is basically the thing foot skirmishers do. A few are able to hold rough or difficult ground, but by and large loosing a few shots while your opponent advances is the role the current rules give them. Doing this well out in front of the main line is risky but still fundamentally the same.
I don't want to oversell their effectiveness. Resisting an advance is not the same as stopping one. It's fair to say skirmishers had a number of roles on the battlefield, but opposing an advance must certainly have been one of them. I'm not sure how else to interpret how velites were deployed, or the fact that what MeG classes as skirmishers were frequently part of the main line of battle in Macedonian armies. The Ottomans also tended to have a screen of skirmishers ahead of the main line to oppose and disrupt cavalry.
Quote from: Doomsmile on October 20, 2025, 11:31:33 PMQuote from: nikgaukroger on October 20, 2025, 07:24:41 AMI'm not sure skirmishers were really used to resist an advance. I would suggest that in the main that they were usually withdrawn before the advance got anywhere close to the enemy.
I'm confused, then. Taking the rules at face value, it seemed to me that the design-intended way to use skirmishing foot is to place them in forward contact with the infantry line and use "tug a sug" to bring them forward.
Is the design-intended way to use foot SUGs actually to double-move them 4+ BW ahead of the main infantry line?
The rules seem like they wish to discourage this behavior, as opposing foot will then double-move to point blank range and force a run-away move from the sug, robbing them of their one turn to shoot effectively before being rendered vulnerable to being pushed through friends in the following movement phase.
I don't think the rules authors intended either way of using SUGs to be the preferred way; there are options for the players to use and decide which is best suited to their plan for the game. Both have their uses and both can be effective.
Depending on how you manage the distances, getting skirmishers pushed back through your TUG might delay your TUG being charged by one turn. Alternatively, it allows your TUG to charge from point blank range, giving a higher chance of catching enemy evaders.
Quote from: LawrenceG on October 21, 2025, 10:58:01 AMDepending on how you manage the distances, getting skirmishers pushed back through your TUG might delay your TUG being charged by one turn. Alternatively, it allows your TUG to charge from point blank range, giving a higher chance of catching enemy evaders.
I'm not sure skirmishers would effect either instance. The don't stop an opponent from moving up to you so they wouldn't delay a charge (unless they got a slow effect). And they'd get in the way of advancing to point blank (unless your opponent advances to push them back, but turn control is probably going to matter more there than the presence of the skirmishers).
Quote from: Manzikert on October 22, 2025, 05:16:22 AMQuote from: LawrenceG on October 21, 2025, 10:58:01 AMDepending on how you manage the distances, getting skirmishers pushed back through your TUG might delay your TUG being charged by one turn. Alternatively, it allows your TUG to charge from point blank range, giving a higher chance of catching enemy evaders.
I'm not sure skirmishers would effect either instance. The don't stop an opponent from moving up to you so they wouldn't delay a charge (unless they got a slow effect). And they'd get in the way of advancing to point blank (unless your opponent advances to push them back, but turn control is probably going to matter more there than the presence of the skirmishers).
You have a TUG with a SUG in front, not in shooting range of the enemy. The enemy is within charge distance of your TUG. HE can:
1. Charge now, suffer a shot, hit your TUG if he's not slowed or can push through fire.
2. Move in close to push the skirmishers back through your TUG. His charge has been delayed by one turn.
You have a TUG with a SUG (skirmish foot, 2 ranks) in front. The enemy is weaker shooty cavalry falling back from your TUG. He can:
1. Exchange shots with your skirmishers and potentially lose bases.
2. Move in close to push the skirmishers back through your TUG. Now you can charge from 1 BW away. he'll probably have to run away instead of skirmish.
Quote from: LawrenceG on October 22, 2025, 12:30:13 PMQuote from: Manzikert on October 22, 2025, 05:16:22 AMQuote from: LawrenceG on October 21, 2025, 10:58:01 AMDepending on how you manage the distances, getting skirmishers pushed back through your TUG might delay your TUG being charged by one turn. Alternatively, it allows your TUG to charge from point blank range, giving a higher chance of catching enemy evaders.
I'm not sure skirmishers would effect either instance. The don't stop an opponent from moving up to you so they wouldn't delay a charge (unless they got a slow effect). And they'd get in the way of advancing to point blank (unless your opponent advances to push them back, but turn control is probably going to matter more there than the presence of the skirmishers).
You have a TUG with a SUG in front, not in shooting range of the enemy. The enemy is within charge distance of your TUG. HE can:
1. Charge now, suffer a shot, hit your TUG if he's not slowed or can push through fire.
2. Move in close to push the skirmishers back through your TUG. His charge has been delayed by one turn.
You have a TUG with a SUG (skirmish foot, 2 ranks) in front. The enemy is weaker shooty cavalry falling back from your TUG. He can:
1. Exchange shots with your skirmishers and potentially lose bases.
2. Move in close to push the skirmishers back through your TUG. Now you can charge from 1 BW away. he'll probably have to run away instead of skirmish.
/
I don't think your first scenario is possible given ranges and the depth of SuGs. But even if it is, that isn't delaying the charge. It might delay contact if you get the slow and they can't push through. But the odds of actually preventing a charge with a slow aren't great, and
In your second scenario I'm not sure what you mean by "shooty cavalry falling back from your TUG". If the SuG is still in front they can't have fallen back from a charge. So presumably you moved up to them? At which point it's entirely up to the turn timing on if they can still fall back, and the SuG isn't meaningfully contributing.