I'm sorry to see that the Avar Cv are no longer classed as Lancers. I dunno enough history to challenge this from an historic aspect, but is different to other rule sets I've used (and MeG previously).
As a result, the list becomes very generic and loses all colour and interest... If I wanted to deal with lists like that, I'd play FoG
Also, should there be an option to add armour (IIRC in WRG there was an option to upgrade to EHC)
There is no evidence they operated as lancers and the most detailed source we have for them in action (the Strategikon) is clear that they operate in the same way as Turks primarily relying on their archery. DBx and FoG classification reflected this as well.
Quite why they were lancers in the previous iteration of the MeG lists is a compete mystery to me.
As for armour I assume you mean ArmHrs - that is only applied to full and substantial horse armour and the Avar's horse armour is described as just for the horses breast (for those who have it, it wasn't universal), which is why the old WRG lists would have them as EHC.
I think the original idea of Lancers originated with a theory that the Byzantines adopted the Lancer and shoot approach from the Avars. On reflection we decided that Charging Lancer was not appropriate for the Avar.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on May 03, 2019, 11:33:36 AM
I think the original idea of Lancers originated with a theory that the Byzantines adopted the Lancer and shoot approach from the Avars.
Ah, I can see where that could come from with the various bits of equipment that were adopted from the Avars.
Then from whom did the byzantin got the charging lancer from ?
From bulgars?
Given that the Strategikon states that the cavalry should hold the lances at shoulder level in the manner of the "fair haired" races it would actually appear to be a development from there - with added Avar lance 8)
Quote from: nikgaukroger on May 03, 2019, 01:00:47 PM
Given that the Strategikon states that the cavalry should hold the lances at shoulder level in the manner of the "fair haired" races it would actually appear to be a development from there - with added Avar lance 8)
Then I missed something.
In the list maurikian charging lancer predate all fair haired « army by abt 300 years.
In the west prior Norman the best you could get is devastating chargers.
The other charging lancer in the list around that period are in the east with armenian bulgares and petchnegues...
Don't confuse characteristics with the real life mechanism. A Devastating Charger could easily be using their weapons, etc. in the same manner as a Charging Lancer.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on May 03, 2019, 01:44:00 PM
Don't confuse characteristics with the real life mechanism. A Devastating Charger could easily be using their weapons, etc. in the same manner as a Charging Lancer.
Well if they use the same weapon in a similar way and have the same doctrine they should have the same characteristics, no?
Devastating is rank sensitive and provide less impact bonus
Charging lancer isn't rank sensitive and got a +2.
I m little lost here
Quote from: Rino on May 03, 2019, 01:54:17 PM
Well if they use the same weapon in a similar way and have the same doctrine they should have the same characteristics, no?
Not necessarily. Only if they are deemed to have the same effect.
This does take some getting used to, but the net effect is quite good. Sort of like sausage; don't look too closely while it's being made, however much you like the flavor.
If you ride a horse and charge home with a long pointed stick, and you are effective with it, you are a charging lancer. If you do the same thing with lesser effect, you are a DC. If you do it sort of half-heartedly, you are a Short Spear. If you do it really, really well, you are Charging Lancer AND Devatating Charger. If you ride up and fence, you are a Long Spear. Same equipment, different skills.