Cavalry formation 2 bases wide by 3 bases deep. Turns 90. Driving me mad where in the rules or clarries the resulting formation is explained. Help me with a page/clarrie reference please ...
Page 55 9.2 A.3
Note a UG turning 90 must always expand to form a legal formation. Therefore it cannot contract. So if it was 90mm deep, it must end up at least 120mm wide after turning 90.
Richard
OK, so one of those "sideways" explanations.
I keep thinking there is an explicit one like in FoG.
I don't dispute that this is the rule, but it makes me a bit frustrated that cavalry skirmishers can't turn without making their shooting less effective because they lose depth. Infantry skirmishers have no such problem. If this makes any sense, I don't see it. Do we have to make ourselves prisoners to base depths in this fashion?
Not necessarily wedded to it. Legacy habit.
Could equally allow them to turn with a maximum width equal to the depth, and must be legal.
Thereby allowing 3 deep/ 2 wide to remain so.
But also we are pretty generous with turns and moves as is.
I'll ponder for vs 2.
S
I agree that turns are perhaps too generous, but if you're gonna allow flexibility to anyone, surely skirmishers, especially mounted ones, should be the ones to get it. Skirmishing cavalry is basically a cloud, a flock, a loose mob more than a formation. Anyway, something to consider, and I'm glad you'll consider it.
Now, if we can only convince you to let Flexible mounted shooters to shoot at full effect while in Skirmish formation...
My interpretation of this rule is a little different. The rule 9.2.A.3 does not actually say you must expand but says you will always expand to create a legal formation. There is no mention of having to go to three bases width because your formation is over two base widths in depth. You turn a element 90 and expand UP to one element on either side so if you want to go to two bases width you expand one element on either the left or right side. If you want to go to three you can. You pile the other bases behind but you have to have the room.
Geoff
I'm keen to hear more about what is the actual rule intent on this.
I know that at the scale we play, a unit's bases do cover much more space than it should.
But if we say it is the space occupied by the TUG, when turning 90 °, if cavalry 3 bases deep it should be 3 wide and 2 deep just because you need be minimum as wide as you were deep. To do otherwise would mean that the unit turns and contracts . Imagine just all squadrons turn right or left...the depth becomes the front .Unless the reasoning is that the space covered by the base is not the real space covered by the unit.
If you want to turn 90° with cavalry and stay 2 wide and 3 deep, why not use the M3 move ( but you need to go forward to do it )
Hi,
Why do we have the rule that you have to end up as wide as you were deep? In only affects Mtd as foot Tugs tend to be made up of 3 to 4 squares and even mounted are not that badly affected accepting skirmishers who did not fight in set formations anyway.
Geoff
Because that rule does not exist in MEG ? I could not find it 8)
Quote from: badhabum on May 13, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Because that rule does not exist in MEG ? I could not find it 8)
Page 55 9.2 A.3 (as I said earlier).
All that says is that you can expand 1BW on either side of the point of turn. It doesn't specify a required depth etc.
Where does it say how wide and how deep a turning formation must be?
Page 61 3.6.. I personally do not think it is a rule but people assume it is.
Geoff
That paragraph starts with the words "here is another example"
doesn't sound like a rule to me. Kind of sounds like an example.
I don't see anywhere in the rules that the various actions are explicitly defined.
Page 55 says just that you turn 90 degrees and expand up to one element on either side. it is simple. The complication comes in in the example which says that when the unit turns it is the same width as it was deep, which is hard not to do if you turn a square. What the example should say is that when you turn a file the front left hand corner should occupy the same position the right hand corner occupied. You then expand up to one base either side from there.
Geoff
The example on page 61, whilst being about turning 90 into a legal formation does, includes in the wording in 3.6:
"... first turn to be at least as wide as their initial depth ..."
Whilst not definitively a rule per se, it doesn't make sense to mention it unless the intention is that it is a rule IMO.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on May 14, 2019, 05:19:36 PM
The example on page 61, whilst being about turning 90 into a legal formation does, includes in the wording in 3.6:
"... first turn to be at least as wide as their initial depth ..."
Whilst not definitively a rule per se, it doesn't make sense to mention it unless the intention is that it is a rule IMO.
I agree
I had missed that point when looking for how to turn ::)...
As I have said before if this is a rule it only affects skirmishing light horse which is not a formed body so should probably not be affected anyway. Foot tugs are made up of squares and will always be able to turn as wide as they were deep,
Geoff
It affects any mounted who are deployed 2 bases wide and 3 deep, its just that it impacts on skirmishers shooting as they're now only 2 deep - however, it can also be a benefit for them if running away with a 90 degree turn as their rear edge is further away from the enemy after the turn ;D
However, as base depth is massively over stated compared to real life formation depth, and, as you mention, skirmishers have a less formal order, I think this is something that could benefit from a look at.
Assuming standard 15mm depths, the current situation is such that most UGs that turn 90 degrees will end up two files wide. The only exceptions would be cavalry, camelry, chariots or elephants that start 3 or 4 ranks deep. Cavalry or camelry that are 3 or 4 ranks deep become 3 files wide. Elephants or chariots 3 ranks deep will end up 3 files wide. Chariots that are 4 ranks deep will end up 4 files wide.
So cavalry or camelry that are 3 ranks deep are really the only anomaly. I wouldn't have a problem with an explicit rule which allowed 2 wide cavalry UGs to remain 2 wide when they turn 90 degrees. That said it isn't a situation that comes up very often, mostly affects skirmishing cavalry (as others have pointed out) and skirmishing cavalry can often wheel rather than turning.
Richard
To be totally honest that rule as per the diagram is a FOG legacy that I never really reconsidered.
I'm sold on skirmishers allowed tot run 90 normal depth. Kind of mirrors the rule of them always being able to expend or
The aspects to mull over are as follows:
1. Should deep formation have to spread out. From my reading of manouvre in lagter periods ...
a) infantry who are all the same tend to turn on the spot as individuals, and then expand back out into formation thereafter.
b) cavalry don't turn so well so instead tend to break into small frontages and wheel 90 within the bigger formation. chariots I am sure would have to do this to make such a turn.
c) troops with different ranks find it difficult as they tend to lose their formation as they are designed to move forward and wheel.
d) skirmishers are really a swarm and just adjust facing any angle.
2. So what is best representation?
a) turn and form up 2 wide (3 if a 9).
b) turned formation more equates to the total number of ranks turning ... so depth not a bad guide perhaps
c) end up with front ranks and rear ranks in front line (skutatoi?) or allow them to reform into their correct formation. Right no it takes two moves. On to trun 90 and one to redress ranks. Feels good to me. May need a little definition.
d) Allow them to turn as a) above.
thoughts?
You could just do what it says on page 55 and ignore page 61. Turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width either side.
Geoff
Work for infantry.
Doesn't feel right for 3 deep cavalry or chariots to me though.
Ought to allow a longer and deeper run across front and wheel into wider line.
Si
At the moment you have two rules performing the same function. On page 55 you turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width on either side. On page 61 you turn an element and then move other elements to make the width the same as the depth was before the turn. I assume you occupy the same space and therefore if you turn right the other 2 elements would be to your right. and not on either side. Do you then get to move a base width either side to make a legal formation?
Also my chariots are on 40mm depth bases so turning them does not affect them at all except they only use the rule on page 55 if they need to expand. The rule on page 61 only affects the ability of LH skirmishers , and nothing else, to function in their tactical role.
Geoff
Quote from: GEOFFRM1 on May 18, 2019, 09:11:51 AM
On page 55 you turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width on either side.
Note that this rule is for a specific case when a 90 degree turn would otherwise leave the formation an illegal one and so allows an expansion by the minimum necessary to make a legal formation.
Quote from: GEOFFRM1 on May 18, 2019, 09:11:51 AM
At the moment you have two rules performing the same function. On page 55 you turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width on either side. On page 61 you turn an element and then move other elements to make the width the same as the depth was before the turn. I assume you occupy the same space and therefore if you turn right the other 2 elements would be to your right. and not on either side. Do you then get to move a base width either side to make a legal formation?
Also my chariots are on 40mm depth bases so turning them does not affect them at all except they only use the rule on page 55 if they need to expand. The rule on page 61 only affects the ability of LH skirmishers , and nothing else, to function in their tactical role.
Geoff
But it always allows chariots/cavalry
CC
CC
CC
to move forward and turn 3 wide.... thereby allowing cavalary and chariots to use a historical tactic of ride across a front and turn to face as "squadrons".
Si
Yes but it forces skirmishing light horse to form up three wide two deep and therefore affects their ability to shoot. With everything else they retain the ability for each file to function as trained, but not light horse.
Geoff
maybe its just a case of:
When performing a 90 degree turn:
- must have as many elements wide post turn as was deep before the turn.
- Skirmishers may elect to retain original width.
**Another question: Where do you turn from? ie: do you get to pick which based to turn and then build out from there? Seems it can be manipulated as it stands.