Since we have been clarifying M4 and M6, here is a query on M7.
Is it possible for a UG already in combat to be prompted to do an M7 action? It would be only possible if the UG hasn't already made a prompted action this turn (i.e. it cannot have charged). This would allow a UG to expand a file that would not be a supporting file - which we have decided is not possible with an MF1 move.
There is at least one scenario where being able to expand a file is useful; to prevent an enemy UG getting around the flank. It doesn't happen often, but as the rules are currently written I cannot find any reason that this move should be forbidden. It cropped up at Roll Call whilst I was umpiring which is why I have raised it here.
Richard
Yes, Why not?
HH
You said prompted move....and if it was a free charge and if it was a mandatory charge ....
2nd item in clarries - "An UG may only make a single Prompted Action, Free or Forced Charge, Run Away or Skirmish per turn ..."
Well, the PDF new rule version should be available soon in 2019 ::)
That will help a lot ;D
This prompts me to ask a possibly related question.
Where does it say you can't make any 'M' move in the movement phase to break contact?
Say I am hit in the flank/read during the charge. No better, lets say my opponent is hit in the flank/rear.
I can't see where it says the charged unit can't make, say, an M2 move straight ahead and break contact - presuming it survives.
If someone can direct me to the appropriate rule I would be grateful.
Quote from: accard on May 03, 2019, 03:29:03 AM
This prompts me to ask a possibly related question.
Where does it say you can't make any 'M' move in the movement phase to break contact?
Say I am hit in the flank/read during the charge. No better, lets say my opponent is hit in the flank/rear.
I can't see where it says the charged unit can't make, say, an M2 move straight ahead and break contact - presuming it survives.
If someone can direct me to the appropriate rule I would be grateful.
I believe it is implied (by the breakoff moves) but not explicitly stated. A statement on what M moves are possible to a unit in combat would be desirable.
Richard
Yes, I had being playing it as implied, but then when one of my opponents wanted to do an M move in the Movement phase I said he couldn't, but then struggled to justify myself.
Well for movement of unit fighting you have MF move and that's it, right?
That's how I had been playing it - but where does it state that?
It doesn't ;D
In fact, if you look at Page 49, 3.4 which says which units cannot make prompted actions other than MF1 and MF2 you could possibly imply that you could make other M moves :o
Quote from: accard on May 03, 2019, 08:39:18 AM
Yes, I had being playing it as implied, but then when one of my opponents wanted to do an M move in the combat phase I said he couldn't, but then struggled to justify myself.
Have a look at the turn sequence. Point 5 Fighting sequence and just follow the sequence. What you may do is clearly listed .
You can't in the fighting phase, however, the question was originally about the movement phase:
Quote from: accard on May 03, 2019, 03:29:03 AM
Where does it say you can't make any 'M' move in the movement phase to break contact?
although it has been muddied by references to the fighting phase since (and I think that phase is clear) :P :o
Mud fight!!
the muddied reference to combat phase was incorrect - meant movement phase - but with units in combat.
Actually MF is considered as an action you could do during fighting phase or during movement.
So it's rather diluted mud
The matter in hand is nothing to do with MF moves, it is all to do with the allowance of M moves.
Quote from: accard
Where does it say you can't make any 'M' move in the movement phase to break contact?
Say I am hit in the flank/read during the charge. No better, lets say my opponent is hit in the flank/rear.
I can't see where it says the charged unit can't make, say, an M2 move straight ahead and break contact - presuming it survives.
If someone can direct me to the appropriate rule I would be grateful.
It's MF moves only once you are in a scrap.
Bugger I see the issue. Left hand side of the QRS Prompted ACtion Table has lost an entry.
"Movement phase if not in combat" should be third one down where its blank.
S
Added to official clarries...
M moves when in Combat
These are not allowed. Only MF moves and break off are allowed until out of combat. This is an ommission on the QRS. The blank box on the left should read " Movement Phase if not in Combat".
BTW does it actually say that a unit in melee cannot run away/skirmish if charged?
;) :o 8)
Hmmm .... possibly not but the intent is you cannot.
Thought it was a very early clarry but I see it not!
S
So does this mean expand while stationary is not allowed in combat?
Correct. In combat its all MF1 and MF2 moves to get the same effects.
So the game foes "micro" once combat starts.
S
Which brings it back to the question - in combat can you use MF1 to expand (ie you are not making an overlap or contact - just extending the unit further eg to stop a potential flank move)?
Quote from: daveparish on May 06, 2019, 10:49:50 AM
Which brings it back to the question - in combat can you use MF1 to expand (ie you are not making an overlap or contact - just extending the unit further eg to stop a potential flank move)?
RJC plays it that you can use MF1 in this way
And indeed has ruled that way, however, he asked the question because earlier this year Si posted the following:
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
MF1 moves
Are intended for use only when in combat.
Notes: "Create Supporting Files, fill gaps, create new rear ranks etc. Multiple actions allowed."
Alas that "etc." may be a lazy error on my part.
MF1 is to create people fighting. So it really is "Create Supporting Files, fill file gaps, create new files or create new rear ranks" and nothing more (?check).
That again is why it is cheaper than some of the equivalent moves such as an expansion move M7.
But with the "etc." I can see how it could be rightly argued that this includes using it to just "expand" as per M7 on the cheap. My mistake.
It is a response to close enemy and an imminent and present danger. I think to get that I simply need to delete the etc?
Which says that Si does not intend it to be so.
However, a new clarification has, as yet, not been published.
So whats the latest on this?
Si is back on the forums, so may be able to make final statement now?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on May 06, 2019, 03:30:40 PM
And indeed has ruled that way, however, he asked the question because earlier this year Si posted the following:
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
MF1 moves
Are intended for use only when in combat.
Notes: "Create Supporting Files, fill gaps, create new rear ranks etc. Multiple actions allowed."
Alas that "etc." may be a lazy error on my part.
MF1 is to create people fighting. So it really is "Create Supporting Files, fill file gaps, create new files or create new rear ranks" and nothing more (?check).
That again is why it is cheaper than some of the equivalent moves such as an expansion move M7.
But with the "etc." I can see how it could be rightly argued that this includes using it to just "expand" as per M7 on the cheap. My mistake.
It is a response to close enemy and an imminent and present danger. I think to get that I simply need to delete the etc?
Which says that Si does not intend it to be so.
However, a new clarification has, as yet, not been published.
Actually it isn't M7 n the cheap so not worried about the being done as an MF1. It does seem a reasonable short threat reaction when in melee and keeps it simply that its MF1/2 moves ONLY when in combat but otherwise no exceptions needed. I will leave it that way.
I have added a clarry on methods of making contact with enemy. Currently as follows. Please check adn prompt me on any lack of clarity or imissions.
Ways of making contact with enemy UGsThere are only the following methods:
1. A charge making contact with front edge or corner.
2. If you are in combat, an MF1 move used to expand to
frontally fight (your front edge) an enemy base adjacent to your UG.
This can thereby draw a new enemy UG into a frontal Melee Combat, and potentially if said enemy is not currently in combat (i.e. corner to corner contact on one side due to an enemy base loss). Note no such move is allowed if it creates only a flank contact with an enemy (e,g, to thereby avoid being charged in the flank); but if there were a base to fight frontally they could do so and would then face a front and flank melee combat.3. If you are in combat, an MF2 move that turns to face to give a frontal combat where previously their was side or rear contact.
4. If not in combat, but UGs are touching in corner-to-corner/edge-to-edge contact, then by the turn or wheel moves on page 80
Note an MF1 is not allowed as at the time you are not in combat at the time of making the move. The philosophy being that they are still moving as organised units, whereas MF1, MF2 moves are the general repsonses of troops in a fight, to get into the scrap.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
MF1 moves
Are intended for use only when in combat.
Notes: "Create Supporting Files, fill gaps, create new rear ranks etc. Multiple actions allowed."
Alas that "etc." may be a lazy error on my part.
....
My mistake.
It is a response to close enemy and an imminent and present danger. I think to get that I simply need to delete the etc?
Don't forget to delete that "etc" - it doesn't look like it has made it to the clarries yet
Dave
PS sorry for the cheeky reminder - I realise you have a lot on your plate at the moment
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on May 16, 2019, 09:53:03 AM
Note no such move is allowed if it creates only a flank contact with an enemy (e,g, to thereby avoid being charged in the flank); but if there were a base to fight frontally they could do so and would then face a front and flank melee combat.
I suspect this comes from my game at Campaign with RJC - I was wriggling desperately to get out of a flank charge. Looks like my solution was valid even though the ruling went against me. Nevertheless it was a great game and I don't think that point affected the final outcome - so I'll just see it as Richard and me contributing to the ever tightening refinement of the rules!
Quote4. If not in combat, but UGs are touching in corner-to-corner/edge-to-edge contact, then by the turn or wheel moves on page 80 Note an MF1 is not allowed as at the time you are not in combat at the time of making the move. The philosophy being that they are still moving as organised units, whereas MF1, MF2 moves are the general repsonses of troops in a fight, to get into the scrap.
What if the TUG is in frontal contact with an ennemy TUG to the front and wants to expand to have frontal contact with another ennemy TUG or SUG that is in "support" and so corner to corner contact only ?
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on May 16, 2019, 09:53:03 AM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on May 06, 2019, 03:30:40 PM
And indeed has ruled that way, however, he asked the question because earlier this year Si posted the following:
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
MF1 moves
Are intended for use only when in combat.
Notes: "Create Supporting Files, fill gaps, create new rear ranks etc. Multiple actions allowed."
Alas that "etc." may be a lazy error on my part.
MF1 is to create people fighting. So it really is "Create Supporting Files, fill file gaps, create new files or create new rear ranks" and nothing more (?check).
That again is why it is cheaper than some of the equivalent moves such as an expansion move M7.
But with the "etc." I can see how it could be rightly argued that this includes using it to just "expand" as per M7 on the cheap. My mistake.
It is a response to close enemy and an imminent and present danger. I think to get that I simply need to delete the etc?
Which says that Si does not intend it to be so.
However, a new clarification has, as yet, not been published.
Actually it isn't M7 n the cheap so not worried about the being done as an MF1. It does seem a reasonable short threat reaction when in melee and keeps it simply that its MF1/2 moves ONLY when in combat but otherwise no exceptions needed. I will leave it that way.
I have added a clarry on methods of making contact with enemy. Currently as follows. Please check adn prompt me on any lack of clarity or imissions.
Ways of making contact with enemy UGs
There are only the following methods:
1. A charge making contact with front edge or corner.
2. If you are in combat, an MF1 move used to expand to frontally fight (your front edge) an enemy base adjacent to your UG. This can thereby draw a new enemy UG into a frontal Melee Combat, and potentially if said enemy is not currently in combat (i.e. corner to corner contact on one side due to an enemy base loss). Note no such move is allowed if it creates only a flank contact with an enemy (e,g, to thereby avoid being charged in the flank); but if there were a base to fight frontally they could do so and would then face a front and flank melee combat.
3. If you are in combat, an MF2 move that turns to face to give a frontal combat where previously their was side or rear contact.
4. If not in combat, but UGs are touching in corner-to-corner/edge-to-edge contact, then by the turn or wheel moves on page 80 Note an MF1 is not allowed as at the time you are not in combat at the time of making the move. The philosophy being that they are still moving as organised units, whereas MF1, MF2 moves are the general repsonses of troops in a fight, to get into the scrap.
Should the clarries not be posted in the right forum ? I noticed clarries here and there but they should be all in the same place
They are always in the same place.
Website for clarries at jan 1.
Running stream in my section called latest clarries - updated as we go.
This was just a copy fYI.
Si
reading that....
if you were facing a TUG that had stepped slightly past your front line (and possibly had a shimy) to set up a flank charge...could you expand into it to stop the charge
simplest version
XXX
OOOXX
OOO
O
X are the two dastardly bad gu TUGs who have unsportingly moved down the flank of O
can the brave (and possibly heroic) extra O jump out to lock the sneaky flanking TUG in combat creating something like
XXX
OOOXX
OOOO
Yup, that's the question we all need answering...
Good luck heroic little 0.
...if you can its the quickest way to sop that annoying slide past and flank charge that seems to be all the rage at the moment
Quote from: DracoStandard on May 20, 2019, 03:37:54 PM
reading that....
if you were facing a TUG that had stepped slightly past your front line (and possibly had a shimy) to set up a flank charge...could you expand into it to stop the charge
simplest version
XXX
OOOXX
OOO
O
X are the two dastardly bad gu TUGs who have unsportingly moved down the flank of O
can the brave (and possibly heroic) extra O jump out to lock the sneaky flanking TUG in combat creating something like
XXX
OOOXX
OOOO
If XX (the dastardly ones) are a supporting file, then by Simon's clarification above then yes you can use an MF1 move to expand into frontal combat against them. If however there is a gap between the UGs then no, you cannot use either an MF1 or an M7 to expand.
Richard
Is it wrong I now want to do an allied unit of 0s?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on May 22, 2019, 06:54:15 AM
Quote from: DracoStandard on May 20, 2019, 03:37:54 PM
reading that....
if you were facing a TUG that had stepped slightly past your front line (and possibly had a shimy) to set up a flank charge...could you expand into it to stop the charge
simplest version
XXX
OOOXX
OOO
O
X are the two dastardly bad gu TUGs who have unsportingly moved down the flank of O
can the brave (and possibly heroic) extra O jump out to lock the sneaky flanking TUG in combat creating something like
XXX
OOOXX
OOOO
If XX (the dastardly ones) are a supporting file, then by Simon's clarification above then yes you can use an MF1 move to expand into frontal combat against them. If however there is a gap between the UGs then no, you cannot use either an MF1 or an M7 to expand.
Richard
This is a very interesting one the more I think about it. If we allow MF1 to do this to protect a flank then we could have a situation where an engaged UG finds it easier to protect its flank than an unengaged one. So M7 and MF1 used this way need to be consistent. Will discuss with Richard on Skype and revert. As is for now. AS usual the official stream only is real. All else is discussion.
Si