Initially posted in army lists
At one point varangians do become FARM, 2HCC but they are not shieldwall .
Is I compare with the viking list where we have the same type of unit, Huscarls do gain shieldwall and shove but ok they are not FARM
In the Anglo-Danish list the Huscarls may also be 2 HCC and regrade shieldwall and shove
During the nikephorian era varangian are LS or SP but also shieldwall and shove
The Varangian guard during the komnenan era did recruit a lot of anglo-danish "refugees" so why as varangian guard may they not have shieldwall or shove ? why did they loose it ?
There is no historical reason for the inconsistency as far as I can see. Probably as a result of different list authors and never having been spotted previously.
Richard
My interpretation was that the units were formed slightly different. The Huscarls would have been in formation with some of their retainers (the guys holding the shields). They would have acted in concert to achieve the overall effect represented by the rules. The Varangian guard wouldn't have had retainers and would instead have formed up as a block of guys with 2-handed axes (and excellent armor) but without the support of the retainers.
Quote from: Manzikert on October 02, 2025, 10:02:31 PMMy interpretation was that the units were formed slightly different. The Huscarls would have been in formation with some of their retainers (the guys holding the shields). They would have acted in concert to achieve the overall effect represented by the rules. The Varangian guard wouldn't have had retainers and would instead have formed up as a block of guys with 2-handed axes (and excellent armor) but without the support of the retainers.
Can you quote a source for this?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 03, 2025, 07:34:13 AMCan you quote a source for this?
I can't provide a direct quote, or a primary source, but I've seem it described in "Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World: Equipment, Combat Skills and Tactics" (took a bit of searching to find that). But it's generally accepted that the English formed shield walls, and that they did so at Hasting for example, and also that Huscarls used 2-handed Axes. It seems implausible that a man could wield a 2-handed ax and a shield. So a mixed formation seems like the most likely explanation. And the Bayeux tapestry depicts a formation of this kind, mixed units of shield and spear men with imbedded 2-handed ax wielders.
I have less basis for how the Varangian guard fought, beyond general knowledge. I'm interpreting what the MeG rules are try to represent. Though Anna Komnena described them as wielding 2-handed axes. And they certainly wouldn't have had the Fyrd with them in the guard. So an all 2-handed ax formation seem plausible. Though at Dyrrakhion they did resist a Norman charge, with significant help from supporting archers. But they then followed up with an overly aggressive counter attack, which seems odd for a defense shield wall formation to do.
Personally I wouldn't get too hung up on Shieldwall being always a literal thing. The characteristic can usefully be used to get the resisting effect desired - although we haven't really done this to date see the discussion about giving it to dismounted men-at-arms as an indication of where we think it could be used (although that particular idea has been discarded for the time being).