QuoteBut should they from the available historical evidence?
It's been a bit, but I have a couple of battles to put forward. During the Byzantine reconquest of Italy Procopius describes the battle of Taginae (552). His description is fairly detailed, including a duel between named individuals and the Ostrogothic king delaying the battle by giving a dressage performance. In his description of the battle the Byzantines formed a battle line with the archers on the wings angled inward in a sort of crescent formation to support the infantry in the center. The Goths launched a mass cavalry charge that was badly mauled by the enfilading fire from the flanking archers which caused their attack to falter and ultimately lead to their defeat.
Under the current rules would be extremely hard to pull off in MeG. At best two TuGs of archers flanking a single infantry could shoot a single charging cavalry, but the archers would have to be at a fairly extreme angle if they were hoping to get more than a single shot each which would make them extremely vulnerable; assuming the cavalry didn't simply charge the more vulnerable archers instead.
The second battle to consider is Hastings. The battle is generally depicted as the Norman cavalry repeatedly charging uphill into the English line until eventually baiting them into an ill advised charge. But the Bayeux tapestry specifically depicts Norman archers (the only Normal foot troops it seems to depict at all) and shows the English' shield acquiring more arrows throughout the battle. So the archers were contributing ranged support to the cavalry in between their charges, but this isn't something they could do in MeG. The structure of the turn order means the cavalry charges in, engaging the English who then can't be targeted and break off in the end phase to charge again. The archers never have an opportunity to contribute in between the charges
QuoteThe Goths launched a mass cavalry charge that was badly mauled by the enfilading fire from the flanking archers which caused their attack to falter and ultimately lead to their defeat.
The problem might be different : enfilading fire ( flank, rear ) gets no bonuses . Now that is another question that could be discussed should any flank or rear shooting ( any weapon ) get a bonus ( colour upgrade, S is a wound ...) . My feeling is that it should be another topic
QuoteSo the archers were contributing ranged support to the cavalry in between their charges, but this isn't something they could do in MeG
yes they can and I have seen a similar use of archer last sunday . By shooting with skirmisher archer, one player forced his opponent into action . It takes time as during Hastings...
Perhaps a point that can be discussed is the reactivity of the shooty guys when a charging enemy goes towards a friendly UG . The reaction zone is 1 MU. Why ...no one knows the reasoning behind it. Why would a shooty UG just wait, look at the magnificent charge and say : look at those scot greys ...here they come, nice isn't it . I wonder if our friends will resist . Shall we bet ? :) . Why , because it happen's during the charge phase, should the shooty friends not be able to shoot at shooting range to support their friends but only at 1 BW ? Should it be automaticaly done for free or be considered an "intercept" to be able to shoot at incoming chargers at full range to support a friendly UG and pay a card ..perhaps a new point of discussion . A new topic
Quote from: SteveO on March 14, 2025, 11:33:56 PM
Quote from: Doomsmile on March 14, 2025, 01:37:00 AM
I would argue (guess I am arguing :P ) that charges from these sorts of cavalry are unlikely to be repelled by either the unprotected or protected crossbowmen available to contemporary Song armies under the current classifications and rules.
But should they from the available historical evidence?
There is scant historical evidence for most things, and that's before you apply reasonable skepticism towards the evidence that is available. So much so I'd say asking for "historical evidence" in a discussion largely focussed on the relative balance of things is a touch, unproductive..
There is evidence that chinese armies continually fielded significant number of bow armed troops despite the liklihood of facing shock cavalry, and even more so into an era where their own cavalry was lacking.
Quote from: Manzikert on March 27, 2025, 05:50:38 AM
The second battle to consider is Hastings. The battle is generally depicted as the Norman cavalry repeatedly charging uphill into the English line until eventually baiting them into an ill advised charge. But the Bayeux tapestry specifically depicts Norman archers (the only Normal foot troops it seems to depict at all) and shows the English' shield acquiring more arrows throughout the battle. So the archers were contributing ranged support to the cavalry in between their charges, but this isn't something they could do in MeG. The structure of the turn order means the cavalry charges in, engaging the English who then can't be targeted and break off in the end phase to charge again. The archers never have an opportunity to contribute in between the charges
THe Normans had the whole day to fight the battle. In Meg they could send in the archers for a turn or two between charges, but, it would be difficult to get a result in a normal time-limited game. Skirmish archers are really what you need for this, though, so not sure how relevant it is to this discussion of loose foot archers.
Quoteyes they can and I have seen a similar use of archer last sunday . By shooting with skirmisher archer, one player forced his opponent into action . It takes time as during Hastings...
That's not really what the evidence shows happening though. The Normans didn't sit at the bottom of the hill shooting till the English were forced to advance (which is absolutely what would happen in MeG. No one would charge cavalry uphill into Huscarls!). The cavalry is depicted charging repeatedly while apparently being supported by archery.
QuoteTHe Normans had the whole day to fight the battle. In Meg they could send in the archers for a turn or two between charges, but, it would be difficult to get a result in a normal time-limited game.
That's not what the evidence shows happening though.
But even setting that aside, from a practical standpoint to get that result in MeG the cavalry would have to charge, break-off, skip the next charge phase allowing the archers to shoot (hoping they get lucky and cause 2 wounds because if not the wound get's picked up in the end phase) and then the cavalry get another chance to charge. You waste game time, create odd temporal effects, and give the archers a 1/9 chance of meaningfully contributing. If the goal is to allow that to work (and I think it should) let the archers shoot before the charge phase.
QuoteSkirmish archers are really what you need for this, though, so not sure how relevant it is to this discussion of loose foot archers.
Could you describe what you mean? I don't see how skirmishing archers would act much differently. They still shoot after the charge phase.
QuoteThat's not really what the evidence shows happening though. The Normans didn't sit at the bottom of the hill shooting till the English were forced to advance (which is absolutely what would happen in MeG. No one would charge cavalry uphill into Huscarls!). The cavalry is depicted charging repeatedly while apparently being supported by archery.
Are we so sure the cavalry was "charging" and not going near and throw javelins ? There might be a difference between what happened and what we think happened
QuoteIf the goal is to allow that to work (and I think it should) let the archers shoot before the charge phase.
Or give a shoot&charge capacity but to be studied perhaps as a scenario twist
Rules are rules and it is still a game and all rules and games are imperfect
Quote from: Hayung_is on March 27, 2025, 12:16:47 PM
...asking for "historical evidence" in a discussion largely focussed on the relative balance of things is a touch, unproductive..
That probably sums up our dilemma. While I agree that ancient history has a lot of gaps, changing troop effects (as opposed to points) simply to achieve play balance is not historical wargaming IMO.
In any case, I feel that we are now treading water with this topic as there has not really been any new information brought forward and people have already chosen their side. I guess it's up to the MeG 'elders' to make a decision.
Since this has been carved off into a separate thread (thanks SteveO!) I wanted to go ahead and repost my rule change suggestion since it was it was 6 pages deep and what prompted my battle reports above:
...To re-float the idea I shared earlier. Remove the ability of all foot tugs to back-up and let foot ranged units shoot twice, once before charges are declared (after moving generals) and again if a path of charge passes within one base width of their arc of fire (as per current rules). To keep the rules clean we would also move cavalry shooting before charges [after charges are declared] but only allow them to shoot once (either before charges (move) OR at a charger).
This change would put foot shooters into three distinct levels of usefulness. Crap shooters (unprotected and/or combat shy) could be integrated into the line of battle to fire off a volley just before your other troops charge to deal some damage before the main clash. They’d need to be held back or covered by counter-charging/intercepting your opponent since they’re vulnerable; but the potential to put a wound or two on an enemy before melee combat would give them a purpose.
Better shooters (the various flavors of protected NOT combat shy) would also be able to deal some damage to support a charge but also have the potential to do enough shooting damage when receiving a charge that they stand a chance of winning the ensuing melee against a cost appropriate opponent.
Skilled shooters would do quite significant damage to a charger and used well could punch a bit above their weight against other foot. Your opponent would need to use the right tools against them (covering their troops with skirmishers, using cavalry to charge from outside shooting range to mitigate damage, etc).
From a historical perspective I think this all sounds pretty good. It makes sense that archers would shoot into an enemy formation to disrupt it and cause some casualties as the lines were coming together. And it stands to reason that they would start shooting as soon as an enemy came in range, and would continue to shoot until they were engaged (represented by the multiple shots). Better equipped archers could stand up to melee but would be expecting to do enough harm with shooting to make the difference. And from a gamest perspective implementing this rule would also have some interesting fringe benefits beyond making shooters more useful.
It makes shooters in general a bit less finicky which streamlines the game a bit; since it’s no longer necessary to fish for every chance to shoot hoping to roll 2 wounds so they stick. It gives skirmishers some new utility; they can cover your line from the pre-charge shooting to mitigate the effect and do their own pre-charge shooting before falling back through the line to let your real troops charge in. It makes darts meaningfully distinct from javelins since they can be sure to get their black dice of shooting against infantry before the charge.
I ran some ‘back of the napkin’ math on different flavors of archer to see how this would impact the balance against various points comparable match-ups. This post is already more than long enough so I won’t post the details but the vast majority of match-ups were very points appropriate. For example with the change an experienced bow, unprotected OR combat shy archer (54 OR 53 pts) just barely loses to a base infantry (60 pts). An experienced bow archer (75 pts) just barely loses to a melee expert infantry (76 pts). The math does break down a little with skilled bows who tend to punch significantly above their weight. But skilled foot shooters are relatively rare. And they wouldn’t be invulnerable, the opponent would just need to be a little clever about dealing with them.
Overall it seems like a fix that’s easy to implement, is no more complicated than the current system, removes the a-historical back-up move, and gives ranged units in general, but cheap shooters and skirmishers especially, some more utility. There are a few kinks to work out (how would slows work since there are multiple shots, how exactly would shield cover function for example, etc) but overall it seems like it does the job.
QuoteAre we so sure the cavalry was "charging" and not going near and throw javelins ? There might be a difference between what happened and what we think happened
Some of the Norman cavalry are depicted in the tapestry with an overarm technique, and some of their weapons are in flight. But my understanding of them is still that they were shock cavalry; which is what MeG represents. Maybe the representation in MeG is wrong, though I'm not sure how they could be represented in the current rules. If you gave them skilled javelin and shoot and charge that would make them excellent skirmish cavalry, and I don't think Norman cavalry were known for skirmishing. But that would be the only way to have them shoot without making contact. Getting into the weeds on that topic is beyond this discussion.
But if the Normans were shock cavalry then their specific equipment and technique doesn't really change the situation. The archers still never get a chance to shoot unless the Norman player does some weird, a-historical, stuff.
Quote from: Manzikert on March 28, 2025, 02:01:01 AM
QuoteSkirmish archers are really what you need for this, though, so not sure how relevant it is to this discussion of loose foot archers.
Could you describe what you mean? I don't see how skirmishing archers would act much differently. They still shoot after the charge phase.
Skirmishers can pass through the cavalry to shoot, then be pulled back through to allow a charge.
I suppose you could have mixed TUGs of cavalry and bowmen.
Or you could have a special rule similar to "Horse killers" that gives you charge only bow vs infantry instead of melee expert vs cavalry.
Not sure if a line alternating loose archers and cavalry TUGs would have the desired effect.
QuoteSkirmishers can pass through the cavalry to shoot, then be pulled back through to allow a charge.
Unfortunately they'd run into a similar turn order issue. The skirmisher shoots after the charge, so they'd either have to move out of the way and forgo their shot to let the cavalry charge, or the cavalry would have to skip their charge to let the skirmisher shoot (giving the target time to clean up wounds before the next charge phase).
QuoteI suppose you could have mixed TUGs of cavalry and bowmen.
Or you could have a special rule similar to "Horse killers" that gives you charge only bow vs infantry instead of melee expert vs cavalry.
I'm not sure that 'foot bow supporting cavalry' is so uncommon as to require a special unit type.
But I get the impression you aren't a fan of my suggestion of letting foot ranged units shoot before charges. Is there any specific objection you could articulate?
QuoteNot sure if a line alternating loose archers and cavalry TUGs would have the desired effect.
That's the formation I've had the most success with when using archers. And it does accomplish some of what I'm hoping archers can do more generally, but it has a lot of gaps. The primary effect isn't really to make the archers effective, it just gives your opponent a very strong incentive to charge you (or else risk the occasional double wound from shooting) which let's your cavalry get the +1 charge claim for moving foot (and mitigates longspear, pike, and shield wall). But it only really works under some pretty specific conditions. I don't want to write a big long post on it, it's a niche thing archers can do, but it is still a niche.
Quote from: Manzikert on March 28, 2025, 06:36:16 PM
QuoteSkirmishers can pass through the cavalry to shoot, then be pulled back through to allow a charge.
Unfortunately they'd run into a similar turn order issue. The skirmisher shoots after the charge, so they'd either have to move out of the way and forgo their shot to let the cavalry charge, or the cavalry would have to skip their charge to let the skirmisher shoot (giving the target time to clean up wounds before the next charge phase).
QuoteI suppose you could have mixed TUGs of cavalry and bowmen.
Or you could have a special rule similar to "Horse killers" that gives you charge only bow vs infantry instead of melee expert vs cavalry.
I'm not sure that 'foot bow supporting cavalry' is so uncommon as to require a special unit type.
But I get the impression you aren't a fan of my suggestion of letting foot ranged units shoot before charges. Is there any specific objection you could articulate?
Yes, cavalry foregoing a turn or two of charges while the shooting damage accumulated is what I had in mind.
I don't have any particular objection to executing shooting before charges, but I'm a bit concerned that shooters on green would become too powerful if they get two shots on enemy charging them (one in the shooting phase and one in the charge phase).
Moving the entire shooting phase and putting it in the "shooting at chargers" subphase might not be a bad idea (as it's a simplification from 3 shooting opportunities to 2), so you can shoot vs anything whose current position or path of charge comes within range and arc and the range would be the point of closest approach (or 1 BW minimum). However, this still does not allow archer UGs in front of cavalry to "prep-fire" for a cavalry charge because the cavalry can't charge through the archer UG.
What if you allowed other TUGs "in support" to shoot when a charge is declared, (i.e. same sequencing as shoot-and-charge, but it's another UG that shoots, not the charging one)?
the 1BW support for shooting has always seem strange to me.
In a game i had a TUG charge another TUG.
My Tug passed along the whole front of archers, 4 files, as i was a bit outside the 1 MU, they could not shoot.
i broke my targeted TUg and my TIG never got shot at.
Feels strange.
Also the trick of charging a corner file of archers to get minimal shooting seems odd.
QuoteYes, cavalry foregoing a turn or two of charges while the shooting damage accumulated is what I had in mind.
That just seems clunky and delays the game. A big part of what I like about shooting before charges is the parsimony of it.
QuoteI don't have any particular objection to executing shooting before charges, but I'm a bit concerned that shooters on green would become too powerful if they get two shots on enemy charging them (one in the shooting phase and one in the charge phase).
I do have some concerns when it comes to unprotected TuGs. I've wondered if we could give some benefit to fleet-of-foot units to compensate them a bit; like downgrading shooting in the charge phase, but I'm not sure how to justify it for fast infantry and not cavalry. But unprotected are already pretty bad, and I rarely ever see them on table in a meaningful role. So I don't anticipate the balance of the game changing all that much.
As for Skilled foot shooters. I agree the change would make them really good, but they're also really rare. Far less common than superior troops, I'd be curious how much more common they are than exceptionals. There are also a lot of ways to mitigate the effect of their shooting (superior, shield cover, full armor, horse armor, skirmisher screen). It may need a points increase but with both those factors I don't see it as too much of a balance issue.
QuoteMoving the entire shooting phase and putting it in the "shooting at chargers" subphase might not be a bad idea ...
It doesn't go quite as far as I'd like but it would be a definite improvement to shooters.