I have seen some mention of Pacto Shove and Shatter rules, I have not seen them and I was hoping someone could provide me with a thumbnail outline as to what the differences are?
Quote from: Wizard of Oz on February 27, 2025, 01:04:50 AM
I have seen some mention of Pacto Shove and Shatter rules, I have not seen them and I was hoping someone could provide me with a thumbnail outline as to what the differences are?
Instead of giving a +2 claim (Shatter) or a +1 claim (Shove) to neighbouring file(s) if you get a Shatter result you immediately roll an additional Green die for the file that caused it and if you get a Shove result you immediately roll an additional White die. (The additional die cannot generate further Shatter/Shove results, it is a one time benefit)
Thank you for the information.
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Instead of giving a +2 claim (Shatter) or a +1 claim (Shove) to neighbouring file(s) if you get a Shatter result you immediately roll an additional Green die for the file that caused it and if you get a Shove result you immediately roll an additional White die. (The additional die cannot generate further Shatter/Shove results, it is a one time benefit)
In my experience it makes Shatters variably potent and Shoves mostly useless. The better the troop type that has Shove the less benefit it gives compared with the original method: So Pike fighting vanilla opponents on a Yellow get an extra White as opposed to a neighbouring file on Red. I know you could get two Whites but that doesn't feel as good as a single Red.
Tried it last night and not sure it speeds anything up that much.
Don't really know how the stats balance out but the point about effect on neighbouring files depending on what their original dice was does seem a good one. If you can get a Shove effect on a neighbour that is Yellow or a Shatter effect on a neighbour that is Green then they go to Red which has a higher chance of getting a Skull and therefore passing the effect on in a Rolling Shatter.
So the old method benefited powerful elite troops. Since a Black has one S then a Shatter there will give a Green which I think is a 400% increase compared to the one Wound a Black has (only considering that file obviously, I know you need to consider the adjacent files under the old method). I think overall that is a percentage boost for weak troops that have Shove or Shatter (great for my Ming Expendable Thunderbomb Oxen!!)
The other point is that this is a decision point in the game removed. You used to have to think about order of fights and whether to put a general in with the possibility of getting Shatters going (basically gambling on success) but now the decision is made simpler. Maybe that's where the time saving comes in but one reason to like MeG is that is has all these little decision points built in and I'm not sure it is a good ideas to remove them.
Quote from: steads on February 27, 2025, 01:13:37 PM
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Instead of giving a +2 claim (Shatter) or a +1 claim (Shove) to neighbouring file(s) if you get a Shatter result you immediately roll an additional Green die for the file that caused it and if you get a Shove result you immediately roll an additional White die. (The additional die cannot generate further Shatter/Shove results, it is a one time benefit)
In my experience it makes Shatters variably potent and Shoves mostly useless. The better the troop type that has Shove the less benefit it gives compared with the original method: So Pike fighting vanilla opponents on a Yellow get an extra White as opposed to a neighbouring file on Red. I know you could get two Whites but that doesn't feel as good as a single Red.
Upgrading a yellow to a red gives you a 2 in 6 chance of doing 1 extra wound.
Throwing a white in addition to a yellow gives you a 2 in 6 chance of doing 1 extra wound.
The red also gives you an extra 1 in 6 chance of propagating the shove, so it is marginally better, but only marginally. However, that only applies if a sequence of neighbouring files is in combat and has not fought yet.
Quote from: daveparish on February 27, 2025, 02:27:34 PM
Tried it last night and not sure it speeds anything up that much.
So the old method benefited powerful elite troops. Since a Black has one S then a Shatter there will give a Green which I think is a 400% increase compared to the one Wound a Black has (only considering that file obviously, I know you need to consider the adjacent files under the old method). I think overall that is a percentage boost for weak troops that have Shove or Shatter (great for my Ming Expendable Thunderbomb Oxen!!)
The other point is that this is a decision point in the game removed. You used to have to think about order of fights and whether to put a general in with the possibility of getting Shatters going (basically gambling on success) but now the decision is made simpler. Maybe that's where the time saving comes in but one reason to like MeG is that is has all these little decision points built in and I'm not sure it is a good ideas to remove them.
How often do troops with Shatter get a black dice, though?
Most of the time the choice of combat is a no-brainer (it's the middle one), the time is used up recognising the situation so you know which one is the no-brainer choice.
Quote from: LawrenceG on February 27, 2025, 04:35:41 PM
Most of the time the choice of combat is a no-brainer (it's the middle one), the time is used up recognising the situation so you know which one is the no-brainer choice.
Actually mathematically you are more likely to get some benefit if you start at an end. The middle (of 3) is shit or bust, whereas an end gives you a 2nd bite at the cherry
Quote from: steads on February 28, 2025, 01:19:56 AM
Quote from: LawrenceG on February 27, 2025, 04:35:41 PM
Most of the time the choice of combat is a no-brainer (it's the middle one), the time is used up recognising the situation so you know which one is the no-brainer choice.
Actually mathematically you are more likely to get some benefit if you start at an end. The middle (of 3) is shit or bust, whereas an end gives you a 2nd bite at the cherry
Please show your working.
Quote from: steads on February 28, 2025, 01:19:56 AM
Quote from: LawrenceG on February 27, 2025, 04:35:41 PM
Most of the time the choice of combat is a no-brainer (it's the middle one), the time is used up recognising the situation so you know which one is the no-brainer choice.
Actually mathematically you are more likely to get some benefit if you start at an end. The middle (of 3) is shit or bust, whereas an end gives you a 2nd bite at the cherry
This is correct. I don't have the statistical analysis to hand.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 28, 2025, 11:00:47 AM
Quote from: steads on February 28, 2025, 01:19:56 AM
Quote from: LawrenceG on February 27, 2025, 04:35:41 PM
Most of the time the choice of combat is a no-brainer (it's the middle one), the time is used up recognising the situation so you know which one is the no-brainer choice.
Actually mathematically you are more likely to get some benefit if you start at an end. The middle (of 3) is shit or bust, whereas an end gives you a 2nd bite at the cherry
This is correct. I don't have the statistical analysis to hand.
Richard
OK, let the probability of getting an upgrade with the starting dice be x
and probability of getting an upgrade with an upgraded dice be (x+a).
Middle first:
Probability of 2nd dice being upgraded is x
Probability of 3rd dice being upgraded is x
End first:
Probability of 2nd dice being upgraded is x
Probability of 3rd dice being upgraded is x(x+a) + (1-x)x
= x^2 + ax +x -x^2
= x(1+a)
So if it's a green to yellow or black to white upgrade, it doesn't matter.
Otherwise, it's best to start at the end.
The person who assured me that middle was best was a student of economics. I should have realised his prediction would be wrong.
Anyway, it's still a no-brainer decision.
If both side shatter on a specific fight, each side should throw a green then, correct?
Before that was nullified, but with pacto system it cause more dice to be thrown, right?