As another dismountable Cyrenean user, I feel a bit hard done by that they lose their weapon AND count combat shy, whereas all other weapons still count. So in effect -3 vs mounted -2 vs foot, everyone else is -1 vs both.
It's not like they are some game unbalancing super-troop.
Quote from: tarnowski1 on January 02, 2025, 12:39:32 AM
Quote from: badhabum on January 01, 2025, 04:37:35 PM
Good point but still many are drilled , so still can double move and dismount so shoot
except its a yellow to dismount.
And it's a yellow to double move, isn't it?
Double move = 2 green move
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2024, 08:12:07 PM
It'd just be easier to remove Dismountable as a characteristic for foot - has no real place in the battles MeG represents anyway IMO.
Either remove the characteristic altogether, stop making it mandatory, or allow drilled mounted infantry to dismount on a green so they can move and dismount on a double move. As things are, troops like Assyrian Kalipani are taxed for a useless ability. I mean, they did fight that way but the game makes it nearly useless.
Dismounting for cavalry is much more useful as they can actually fight both ways, a useful advantage.
Quote from: AntiokosIII on January 05, 2025, 11:14:24 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2024, 08:12:07 PM
It'd just be easier to remove Dismountable as a characteristic for foot - has no real place in the battles MeG represents anyway IMO.
Either remove the characteristic altogether, stop making it mandatory, or allow drilled mounted infantry to dismount on a green so they can move and dismount on a double move. As things are, troops like Assyrian Kalipani are taxed for a useless ability. I mean, they did fight that way but the game makes it nearly useless.
Dismounting for cavalry is much more useful as they can actually fight both ways, a useful advantage.
Allowing on a green would make some troops overly deadly, thinking about the longbows.
Maybe keep the charecteristic but change it: dismountable infantry can deploy at the deployment phase 3 Mu further towards the center of the table than other troops.
Quote from: Jilu on January 07, 2025, 05:49:52 AM
Maybe keep the charecteristic but change it: dismountable infantry can deploy at the deployment phase 3 Mu further towards the center of the table than other troops.
The only reason I'd keep it would be to allow such infantry to arrive as part of a flank march on the same card requirements as mounted; but their on table moves would be as infantry. Only cost a couple of points at the most. Otherwise I don't see it as representing anything that appears in battles that we need to specifically represent - any good examples out there that need it?
IMHO, mounted infantry was used to move the infantry over distance and dismount for battle.
i think that more campaign featrure than a on table battle feature
So yes flank marches would make sense.
There are numerous cases of infantry being mounted for strategic mobility, but MeG isn't representing that.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 07, 2025, 09:07:40 AM
There are numerous cases of infantry being mounted for strategic mobility, but MeG isn't representing that.
There might be a way in the 5 days campaign.
But then the system is simple and would be hard to change and is there really a need to complexify ?
IIRC the source for mounted Cyreneans said the effect was they avoided fatigue on the march and therefore were ready to charge more energetically at the enemy after deployment.
You could represent this in the game with the "fleet of foot" characteristic, perhaps, or maybe Dev Charge.
Quote from: LawrenceG on January 07, 2025, 12:12:50 PM
IIRC the source for mounted Cyreneans said the effect was they avoided fatigue on the march and therefore were ready to charge more energetically at the enemy after deployment.
You could represent this in the game with the "fleet of foot" characteristic, perhaps, or maybe Dev Charge.
I guess that the battles involving Medieval Irish and Late Medieval Scottish might have documentation about this?
This might be interesting read : https://deremilitari.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/morris.pdf (https://deremilitari.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/morris.pdf)
QuoteYou could represent this in the game with the "fleet of foot" characteristic, perhaps, or maybe Dev Charge.
First fleet of foot allows to gr trough terrain easily. With chariots ? that would allow them too much mobility
Allow the to be DC ? Not sure it applies to hoplite like warfare so I would not support those proposals
One could allow mounted infantry to count for scouting like cavalry. Then the points would not be a total waste. Or make the characteristic Always optional, so those of us who think it's useless would not have to buy it. Or allow mounted infantry to flank march as if they were cavalry and let them do the job they did historically; or just get rid of it. We are not starved for choices.
Quote from: AntiokosIII on January 13, 2025, 01:35:29 AM
Or allow mounted infantry to flank march as if they were cavalry
Infantry with the Dismountable characteristic do arrive as Cavalry when flank marching - PDF, page 115, 2.5.2
Quote from: badhabum on January 12, 2025, 07:37:15 PM
QuoteYou could represent this in the game with the "fleet of foot" characteristic, perhaps, or maybe Dev Charge.
First fleet of foot allows to gr trough terrain easily. With chariots ? that would allow them too much mobility
Allow the to be DC ? Not sure it applies to hoplite like warfare so I would not support those proposals
No, they are not on the chariots when they move during the battle.
They came
to the battlefield on the chariots (or more likely donkey carts, the source just says something like "yokes and fours" ). This means they are not fatigued by days of marching to get there. Hence they are full of energy and can move faster on foot than normal troops.
And so suddenly ignore terrain ..maintain formation while racing across the board . No I would not go that way . If you go that way, so it must be for ALL dismountable infantry including PB, including varangians ...makes them much too powerfull
Quote from: badhabum on January 14, 2025, 10:21:35 AM
And so suddenly ignore terrain ..maintain formation while racing across the board . No I would not go that way . If you go that way, so it must be for ALL dismountable infantry including PB, including varangians ...makes them much too powerfull
No, other dismountable infantry would stay dismountable. Riding a horse is quite tiring, apparently.
Dismountable infantry on vehicles lose the dismountable and get fleet of foot instead.
riding on a cart is difficult and they had to be a few of them on a cart ..I am sorry but riding a donkey or having a ride in an overcrowded cart is tiring . My answer is not positive
It was not a tourist tour but they had to grip handles and try to keep up 8)
Quote from: badhabum on January 14, 2025, 03:16:16 PM
riding on a cart is difficult and they had to be a few of them on a cart ..I am sorry but riding a donkey or having a ride in an overcrowded cart is tiring . My answer is not positive
It was not a tourist tour but they had to grip handles and try to keep up 8)
Nonetheless, that is what the ancient source says.
I agree with AntiokosIII, the simplest fix is to make dismountable infantry count as cavalry for PBS/Scout cards. Represents their strategic mobility in a greater ability to choose a battle field and extra mounts is useful for scouting.
If we want to represent them on the table I think the only real option is to make it cost nothing to dismount (performed as part of a move like going into African/Cantabrian). At the moment a dismountable infantry gains 1 extra base of movement over normal infantry. They double move forward 10 (being sure to stay out of charge range of any enemies) then dismount on the next turn. Normal infantry double move forward 6 then single move 3. It's helpful in the extremely narrow case that there's a piece of terrain you want to claim, but even then it would need to not slow down the cavalry move.
Making the dismount a green doesn't help much. They can move 5 and dismount but since it's a double move they have to stay outside 4 of an enemy. A normal infantry could just double move 6.
By making it free at the end of a move it gives them enough battle field mobility to give them an actual edge. They can race forward 10 to occupy a useful part of the battle field or find a good match-up, and move forward 5 into charge range (letting them effectively charge 8 instead of 6).
QuoteNonetheless, that is what the ancient source says.
Chariots and donkeys were meant to transport warriors to the battlefield. Over long distances yes warriors might be freshers than others but were the cyrenean greeks that swift on terrain as to compare to a swiss army ? I think it would be unfair to other dismountable armies and also highly unrealistic.
But we will let the referees decide 8)
Dropping the dismontable characteristic seems nice or just give it some advantages in case of flank moves