Credit to Hammy for this idea.
One feature of MeG is that Instinctive generals get more cards for the same number of points spent. This means that they may get to play the last card (with the advantages that gives).
To counter this the idea is that if a player discards a card they may take the top card of the unused deck.
For a professional general if the colour of the card is equal to or higher than the card discarded then nothing happens. If the colour of the card is lower than the card discarded, then the general keeps that card.
For an instinctive general, the same mechanism applies but the colour of the card has to be at least two lower to keep the card.
So, a Professional general discards a WHITE card. If they draw a BLACK card they may keep it. If they discard a GREEN card they draw and could keep a WHITE or a BLACK card.
An Instinctive general would have to discard at least a GREEN card. If they discard a GREEN card, they draw and would keep a BLACK card.
I do accept that this may be trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist...
My own opinion is the game benefit to the rules is not enough to justify the extra complexity (although it is fairly simple). It might also slow the game down slightly. If anyone wished to try it out however, they might let us know how they got on.
An alternative (and simpler) approach would be simply to not allow instinctive generals to discard BLACK cards until the end of the turn has been completed. A typical hand tends to draw about two BLACK cards each turn (16% of the pack is BLACK). They still could be played with the general's upgrade to move a SuG or advance TuGs directly ahead.
Richard
Hammy mentioned this to me as well. I think it is a clever idea, but over complicated for the issue it is aiming to solve.
Paul Cummins suggested a different idea, a bit similar to yours, which may also be a bit more radical in the differences between Professional and Instinctive generals. It was simply to not allow Instinctive Generals to discard in the Movement phase.
On the "is there actually an issue?" question IMO there is a bit of one.
Of course, tweaking points may well be the answer to it.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 14, 2025, 11:07:21 AM
Of course, tweaking points may well be the answer to it.
Yes.
This is obvious when you reformulate the alleged problem:
Professional generals get exactly the same cards as instinctive. But they get too few troops.
Quote from: LawrenceG on January 14, 2025, 11:24:58 AM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 14, 2025, 11:07:21 AM
Of course, tweaking points may well be the answer to it.
Yes.
This is obvious when you reformulate the alleged problem:
Professional generals get exactly the same cards as instinctive. But they get too few troops.
Err no.... If Professional generals cost the same as Instinctive generals then why would you take Instinctive generals because Professional generals have a greater command range and can gift/receive cards. So I don't think it is as simple as tweaking points. If we make a change which penalises Instinctive generals then we might need to tweak the points. We need to work out the rules first and then figure out the correct points. Not the other way around....
Richard
Pprofessionnals have 4 distinct advantages: command range, ability to give/receive cards, ability to take over any UG of their army allied excepted and better outscouting base
Instinctive generals are cheaper. Being cheaper you can get more "good" generals and so more cards to use in any way you want, they are limited in the command range which is still large 8 MU and may not take over anything that's not in their command
Anything else ?
Quote from: badhabum on January 14, 2025, 02:40:45 PM
Pprofessionnals have 4 distinct advantages: command range, ability to give/receive cards, ability to take over any UG of their army allied excepted and better outscouting base
Instinctive generals are cheaper. Being cheaper you can get more "good" generals and so more cards to use in any way you want, they are limited in the command range which is still large 8 MU and may not take over anything that's not in their command
Anything else ?
Yes, Professionnals have better PBS
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 14, 2025, 10:58:08 AM
Credit to Hammy for this idea.
One feature of MeG is that Instinctive generals get more cards for the same number of points spent. This means that they may get to play the last card (with the advantages that gives).
To counter this the idea is that if a player discards a card they may take the top card of the unused deck.
For a professional general if the colour of the card is equal to or higher than the card discarded then nothing happens. If the colour of the card is lower than the card discarded, then the general keeps that card.
For an instinctive general, the same mechanism applies but the colour of the card has to be at least two lower to keep the card.
So, a Professional general discards a WHITE card. If they draw a BLACK card they may keep it. If they discard a GREEN card they draw and could keep a WHITE or a BLACK card.
An Instinctive general would have to discard at least a GREEN card. If they discard a GREEN card, they draw and would keep a BLACK card.
I do accept that this may be trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist...
My own opinion is the game benefit to the rules is not enough to justify the extra complexity (although it is fairly simple). It might also slow the game down slightly. If anyone wished to try it out however, they might let us know how they got on.
An alternative (and simpler) approach would be simply to not allow instinctive generals to discard BLACK cards until the end of the turn has been completed. A typical hand tends to draw about two BLACK cards each turn (16% of the pack is BLACK). They still could be played with the general's upgrade to move a SuG or advance TuGs directly ahead.
Richard
Seems a bit complicated to me why not keeping it simple, if you want to boost Professional generals give them more cards for talented Cic or legendary CiC : +1 card than the current rule
Or simply if CIC is professional het gets one more card and so be it ?
Quote from: badhabum on January 14, 2025, 03:12:54 PM
Or simply if CIC is professional het gets one more card and so be it ?
It is what i was proposing
Quote from: Jilu on January 14, 2025, 03:18:46 PM
Quote from: badhabum on January 14, 2025, 03:12:54 PM
Or simply if CIC is professional het gets one more card and so be it ?
It is what i was proposing
Nearly : you limited to legendary and talented
I propose any professional CIC would get a + 1 card each turn
If the problem to be solved is armies with Professional Generals do not always get to play the last card in the movement phase, wouldn't the easiest solution be something like ' If a player with a professional AC passes twice he may still play a final card after an opponent with an Instinctive AC has passed twice or used/discarded his cards. He may only play a single card from a command with a professional, non-Ally, General'
if this is thought to be too effective class the move as an out of command move so requires the usual two cards to make the single move.
This is a 'solution looking for a problem' as far as I'm concerned.
There are many advantages to professional generals. The points difference is not that high.
Martin
Quote from: martymagnificent on January 14, 2025, 08:52:40 PM
This is a 'solution looking for a problem' as far as I'm concerned.
I agree.
Quote from: badhabum on January 14, 2025, 02:40:45 PM
Pprofessionnals have 4 distinct advantages: command range, ability to give/receive cards, ability to take over any UG of their army allied excepted and better outscouting base
Instinctive generals are cheaper. Being cheaper you can get more "good" generals and so more cards to use in any way you want, they are limited in the command range which is still large 8 MU and may not take over anything that's not in their command
Anything else ?
We seem to be underselling the benefit of getting the 'last move' so to speak and having that 'tempo' advantage with cards. It's also something your opponent (if they only have Pro generals) can't really do much about.
That said, I think the proposed suggestion is too complex and maybe a bit too punitive on instinctive generals. I think just giving a professional CinC 1 free black card achieves the same goal. You're not potentially getting more useful cards, but you're gaining an extra discard card to help with tempo.
Quote from: tarnowski1 on January 14, 2025, 08:22:00 PM
If the problem to be solved is armies with Professional Generals do not always get to play the last card in the movement phase, wouldn't the easiest solution be something like ...
No, the easiest solution is for players to buy a higher grade of professional general so they get more cards.
Professionals have longer range, card gifting, ability to command troops not in their command and they return from the dead more quickly, and if CinC more PBS and scouting.
The question is: is that worth the extra points?
They could be made a bit cheaper. They would obviously still cost more than instinctive due to the benefits listed above.
I don't think it is currently a no-brainer choice to take instinctive generals if you can, so IMO it's a NFA. But the expert players may know better.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 14, 2025, 10:58:08 AM
Credit to Hammy for this idea.
One feature of MeG is that Instinctive generals get more cards for the same number of points spent. This means that they may get to play the last card (with the advantages that gives).
To counter this the idea is that if a player discards a card they may take the top card of the unused deck.
For a professional general if the colour of the card is equal to or higher than the card discarded then nothing happens. If the colour of the card is lower than the card discarded, then the general keeps that card.
For an instinctive general, the same mechanism applies but the colour of the card has to be at least two lower to keep the card.
So, a Professional general discards a WHITE card. If they draw a BLACK card they may keep it. If they discard a GREEN card they draw and could keep a WHITE or a BLACK card.
An Instinctive general would have to discard at least a GREEN card. If they discard a GREEN card, they draw and would keep a BLACK card.
I do accept that this may be trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist...
My own opinion is the game benefit to the rules is not enough to justify the extra complexity (although it is fairly simple). It might also slow the game down slightly. If anyone wished to try it out however, they might let us know how they got on.
An alternative (and simpler) approach would be simply to not allow instinctive generals to discard BLACK cards until the end of the turn has been completed. A typical hand tends to draw about two BLACK cards each turn (16% of the pack is BLACK). They still could be played with the general's upgrade to move a SuG or advance TuGs directly ahead.
Richard
This seems far too complex a way to solve a minor problem, IMHO
Echoing some other comments above I don't think there's an issue here that really needs to be solved.
However if the powers that be decide that it is an issue then a much simpler solution would be to give armies led by a professional CC an extra 'pass'. Technically this would give a mild advantage to armies wit mixed general types but since you can't pass to instinctive sub-generals that's probably an overall wash.
Quote from: Manzikert on January 21, 2025, 05:31:12 PM
Echoing some other comments above I don't think there's an issue here that really needs to be solved.
100% agree
I have noted the comments. Too complex a solution for the minor issue it is trying to solve. I agree, but I thought it was an interesting mechanism.
Richard
I do find it mildly annoying that Instinctively General led armies tend to have the initiative verses Professionally led ones. The solution though is tricky.
Why not give a professional CIC just one more card each turn ...it is simple
Quote from: paulstovell on January 30, 2025, 06:04:19 PM
I do find it mildly annoying that Instinctively General led armies tend to have the initiative verses Professionally led ones. The solution though is tricky.
The solution is not tricky at all.
IT's: Buy better professional generals.
Quote from: martymagnificent on January 14, 2025, 08:52:40 PM
This is a 'solution looking for a problem' as far as I'm concerned.
I'm afraid I have to agree here.
Professional generals get extra perks... and pay for them. (That's points systems for ya!)
I don't want to undersell the power of tempo control-- it can be a really big deal, and I
love abusing it when I can! -- but the reliability of professional generals (via card passing) is also a huge asset.
Almost every game I run with a dedicated passer, the ability to throw cards at generals in a bad position or with a lousy hand comes in absolutely clutch.
If high degree of tempo control is really important for a professional army I'm building, I tend to either reevaluate my build to see if I can temper that need, or just bite the bullet and pay for the extra command.
(Though the one exception here is that the points cost on a legendary professional is completely out of hand-- I've never been able to afford one of those in good conscience!)