couple of questions to replenish my memory.
1- foot crossbows standing to receive a charge only class an S as a wound for those files physically being contacted by an enemy base?
2- Charge only shooters standing to receive and choose to shoot, only shoot those files being contacted by enemy bases?
1. Yes; as shooting is done by file this effect is applied by file so it has to be a shooting file actually contacted by a charge.
2. Yes; as the Shoot and Charge characteristic description in Appendix 1 (PDF) states "files".
so the 1 BW rule in the path of charge, for an overlapping base not being charged, does not apply?
It applies to whether files not being charged can shoot, but not to whether the S = Wound applies.
So for super clarity;
1. the file must be getting charged to get the S=wound characteristic of Xbow.
2.a. Charge only shooters can shoot if the TuG is standing to receive and the path of charge is within 1BW of the file.
or if they charge and are within range.
b. Shoot and charge shoot if within 1bw of the path of charge just like regular shooters (because they are).
Quote from: Hayung_is on November 12, 2024, 01:44:06 AM
So for super clarity;
1. the file must be getting charged to get the S=wound characteristic of Xbow.
2.a. Charge only shooters can shoot if the TuG is standing to receive and the path of charge is within 1BW of the file.
or if they charge and are within range.
b. Shoot and charge shoot if within 1bw of the path of charge just like regular shooters (because they are).
This seems clear now, thank you
Quote from: Hayung_is on November 12, 2024, 01:44:06 AM
So for super clarity;
1. the file must be getting charged to get the S=wound characteristic of Xbow.
Yes. (and standing to receive)
Quote
2.a. Charge only shooters can shoot if the TuG is standing to receive and the path of charge is within 1BW of the file.
or if they charge and are within range.
Files of Charge Only shooters standing to receive can shoot when being charged - so this is basically the same as the crossbow case.
Quote
b. Shoot and charge shoot if within 1bw of the path of charge just like regular shooters (because they are).
Indeed.
The characteristic definition for Shoot & Charge from the PDF to assist.
(https://i.imgur.com/1tLLhLw.png)
So does that mean that a Charge only shooter 3 wide who charges a two wide opponent might only get two shots (the two files who contact)? Would you potentially need to do a cheesy wheel so that all three bases contacted the two enemy bases in order to get all your shooting?
I see that the "files" part says when standing to receive or when charging. So it could mean that
When charging they use the usual rules for targets (see 1 in the description of the characteristic which mentions in arc) so it isn't just the bases that contact.
It is a tad messy to be honest :(
Are you sure? Point 6 in your quote above says when standing or charging
imho it is complicating things, the standard rule application would be easier to apply, less exceptions
Quote from: Jilu on November 12, 2024, 10:03:10 AM
imho it is complicating things, the standard rule application would be easier to apply, less exceptions
Sorry I don't quite understand, what is the standard rule application? (not trying to be rude, really don't understand)
Quote from: daveparish on November 12, 2024, 09:42:11 AM
Are you sure? Point 6 in your quote above says when standing or charging
It does seem to suggest that shoot and charge shooters, shoot any one in arc and range as per 1 but charge only shooters are further limited to those that would make contact in the charge as per 6
Quote from: tarnowski1 on November 12, 2024, 10:24:09 AM
Quote from: daveparish on November 12, 2024, 09:42:11 AM
Are you sure? Point 6 in your quote above says when standing or charging
It does seem to suggest that shoot and charge shooters, shoot any one in arc and range as per 1 but charge only shooters are further limited to those that would make contact in the charge as per 6
Remember that Charge Only shooters automatically have the Shoot & Charge characteristic (see 5 J in the PDF) hence why 1 applies.
I would agree that it would be better if Charge Only shooters who stand to receive just shoot as normal and it didn't say "files". However, the use of "files" is deliberate to my knowledge.
If an UG charges, then all files in that UG are charging, whether or not they contact anything. I don't think anyone would argue against that.
It's not so obvious that when an UG stands to receive a charge, files that don't get contacted are not standing to receive a charge.
It is counter-intuitive that files that specialise in shooting only when there is a charge don't shoot, but files without that specialisation do.
It also seems inconsistent with the "notional charge" concept attributed to charging lancer and dev charge that stand to receive.
It also means you get different results depending on whether the chargers are exactly aligned with the receivers, or misaligned even by 1 mm (and hence leads to cheese manipulating that). THis applies to the foot crossbow S-kill too.
It would be more mentally ergonomic if charge only shooters shoot on the same basis as other shooters with shoot-and-charge in the charge phase. This could be implemented with no rule wording change simply by interpreting all files in a standing-to-receive UG as standing-to-receive. This would also affect the foot crossbows S-kill, of course.
pdf 7.H.3 just says "Foot crossbows standing to receive a charge get this bonus" no mention of files and it's not even clear that a file with non-shooters in the front rank with crossbows shooting from 2nd and 3rd rank don't get the bonus.
All this could do with being made explicit when the rules are updated.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that a file has to be contacted to be "standing to receive". I think that is a case of reading something into the rule that isn't being said. Standing to receive is "Not having declared a charge, countercharge, intercept, pursued, skirmished or run away." (Glossary definition supplemented by the clarification).
The requirement of S results = Wound is "Foot Xbw standing to receive at those charging them".
The issue is whether the rule is intended to refer to the file or the UG. Nik has interpreted this rule as being a file.
1) the XBw must be standing to receive.
2) the XBw must be shooting (at an UG or at a file?) that is charging them, not one that is not charging them.
Appendix 1.L:6 further confuses the issue by talking about files.
I AM INTENDING to issue a clarification that
1) Would make it clear that it is TuG. So it will become "S results = Wound is "Foot XBw standing to receive at an UG charging them."
2) Would reword Appendix 1.L:6 so it says "Charge-only shooters only shoot when standing to receive a charge or charging...." and drops the "Files of".
Remember - rule writing is hard.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 12, 2024, 11:51:23 AM
Nowhere in the rules does it say that a file has to be contacted to be "standing to receive". I think that is a case of reading something into the rule that isn't being said. Standing to receive is "Not having declared a charge, countercharge, intercept, pursued, skirmished or run away." (Glossary definition supplemented by the clarification).
The requirement of S results = Wound is "Foot Xbw standing to receive at those charging them".
The issue is whether the rule is intended to refer to the file or the UG. Nik has interpreted this rule as being a file.
1) the XBw must be standing to receive.
2) the XBw must be shooting (at an UG or at a file?) that is charging them, not one that is not charging them.
Appendix 1.L:6 further confuses the issue by talking about files.
I AM INTENDING to issue a clarification that
1) Would make it clear that it is TuG. So it will become "S results = Wound is "Foot XBw standing to receive at an UG charging them."
2) Would reword Appendix 1.L:6 so it says "Charge-only shooters only shoot when standing to receive a charge or charging...." and drops the "Files of".
Remember - rule writing is hard.
Richard
That would clear it up! Thank you.
Writing anything in English with absolute clarity is hard :D
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 12, 2024, 11:51:23 AM
I AM INTENDING to issue a clarification that
1) Would make it clear that it is TuG. So it will become "S results = Wound is "Foot XBw standing to receive at an UG charging them."
2) Would reword Appendix 1.L:6 so it says "Charge-only shooters only shoot when standing to receive a charge or charging...." and drops the "Files of".
Remember - rule writing is hard.
Richard
Yes, very hard.
Hence, also need to make clear whether "them" means "the shooting UG " , "the shooting file" or "the shooting base".
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 12, 2024, 11:51:23 AM
Nowhere in the rules does it say that a file has to be contacted to be "standing to receive".
Indeed; I rather casually used contacted when they key bit is "charging them" - and that wording is the basis of my view. Have emailed you about possible wrinkles 8)
"charging the shooting UG".
Richard
So if I followed the discussion : all shooting files of a receiving crossbowmen UG get the "S" is a wound if they shoot at the charging UG
And all files of a charge only UG that is charged can shoot even if not contacted as a file but are able to shoot thanks to shooting arc
I reworded it to be foolproof
Official Clarifications have been updated.
Richard
Where does one find the official clarifications?
Quote from: Hayung_is on November 14, 2024, 01:58:49 AM
Where does one find the official clarifications?
https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2787.0 (https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2787.0)