QuoteI am unclear why you think revealing game imbalances in non-historical opponents contributes anything. If armies in themed events are generally balanced, then it implies the rules (and lists) are pretty good.
Balanced in themes, as you say, pretty good. Balanced across all themes/eras, perfection.
It has, for example, been interesting to see how massively skewed the game is towards later armies (at least in the minds of many UK competition players) from the last couple of UK open comps. I, for one, am actually quite surprised by this and wouldn't have otherwise been aware. There certainly doesn't seem to be a single obvious reason for it.
Martin
I split this topic off because it would distract from the issue of themes for Britcon.
If you look at the results from Britcon, actually the Renaissance lists appear at both top and bottom of the standings. I am not convinced that the later lists are necessarily that much better than other lists. Graham uses the James IV Scottish very well, as did Matt with his Later Swiss. After that the results were pretty close, I ended up 8th only 5 points off 3rd place.
Richard
To throw my hat in there, coming from a more quote / unquote 'competitive' game system (infinity) and playing around with list writing - medieval lists (and this is a bit broad brush) tend to have a lot more flexibility in writing lists and the tools they can bring (ie. mixing Pike units with quality ranged troops like Longbow and crossbow plus powerful cavalry) plus useful ally options (which is an optimisation in itself) whereas ancient armies tended to be one specialty (massed pike, massed cavalry, high quality infantry) with very restrictive allies.
Further to that, medieval lists often have more ways to "optimise" a list - such as mixing in average or poor unprotected bases into your superior fully armed knights - options, which provide the 'discount' to the base cost as if they were in a TUG of their own but with less effect on the UGs performance on the battlefield. In a competitive environment, these small things aren't going to make average players win, but players who are there to win and do their best (and not in the negative win at all costs bollocks, but just want to maximise their chances) these are noticeable and can be compensated with by player skill.
Most of the later European armies will be smaller and that is what gives their opponents a chance
But I still struggle to find a list where you can mix Knights and poor unprotected bases 8) can you please point the way ?
Also those mixed TUGs are quite fragile when the first layer dies it looses a lot of impact
CAn be difficult to get through the first layer when you are on white dice.
If we speak knights most are CL and Dc from the normans on
Pike : phalanxes do have a long story
Skilled bows are found mostly in antique armies or mongol type armies so I think there is a kind of balance but admit that fleet of foot protected swiss are ..difficult to tackle
Superior, protected, fleet of foot Swiss keils are very tough - and extremely expensive in points!
As a Swiss army player, I feel I know the strengths and weaknesses of the army pretty well and even managed to win a tournament with them once. However, with only five TuGs, you need a lot of luck, especially with match-ups. For example, I didn't draw a shooty cavalry army in the tournament I won. One of the big problems that the 'protected' Swiss has to overcome, is catching and destroying enough enemy TuGs to win before being surrounded and swamped. Even the Swiss die when opponents get rear combats.
Don't get me wrong I love my Swiss army, as much for its aesthetics as anything, but it is not an overpowered army. The Swiss might be hard to beat but they are also hard to win with. You might surprise some players the first time they play the keils but then most players will recognise its vulnerabilities.
Quote from: badhabum on November 03, 2024, 10:51:30 AM
Most of the later European armies will be smaller and that is what gives their opponents a chance
But I still struggle to find a list where you can mix Knights and poor unprotected bases 8) can you please point the way ?
Also those mixed TUGs are quite fragile when the first layer dies it looses a lot of impact
Most, but not all. Looking at tournament lists, many still hit the average of 9 TUGs.
sorry I mistyped on the mixing - I meant to say poorer quality and less protected. Like average protected coustilliers riding along with Knights in French Ordonnance. Or even Protected sergeants with fully armoured knights.
They do lose effectiveness but on average, they're going to perform their role similarly to a fully equipped knight unit or cataphract unit for a few hundred points less - and the question becomes, can you squeeze some more utility into the list, like say another TUG or SUG that can screen it from good shooters?
Quote from: SteveO on November 03, 2024, 10:27:56 PM
Superior, protected, fleet of foot Swiss keils are very tough - and extremely expensive in points!
I think that Swiss armies with the Unprotected version are better.
My record against Swiss is played 3, won 2 drawn 1 - the most difficult game was against the army with Unprotected pikemen 8)
You may be right Nic - I have yet to try them. But even so, I doubt they will be unbeatable.
Quote from: Hayung_is on November 04, 2024, 02:12:53 AM
Quote from: badhabum on November 03, 2024, 10:51:30 AM
Most of the later European armies will be smaller and that is what gives their opponents a chance
But I still struggle to find a list where you can mix Knights and poor unprotected bases 8) can you please point the way ?
Also those mixed TUGs are quite fragile when the first layer dies it looses a lot of impact
Most, but not all. Looking at tournament lists, many still hit the average of 9 TUGs.
sorry I mistyped on the mixing - I meant to say poorer quality and less protected. Like average protected coustilliers riding along with Knights in French Ordonnance. Or even Protected sergeants with fully armoured knights.
They do lose effectiveness but on average, they're going to perform their role similarly to a fully equipped knight unit or cataphract unit for a few hundred points less - and the question becomes, can you squeeze some more utility into the list, like say another TUG or SUG that can screen it from good shooters?
Every army has a nemesis so what ?
Some biblical armies do have what's needed to overcome late medieval/early renaissance armies
It also is a matter of knowing your army, luck, terrain, cards, PBS, OS ...
Quote from: badhabum on November 04, 2024, 08:54:46 AM
Every army has a nemesis so what ?
Some biblical armies do have what's needed to overcome late medieval/early renaissance armies
It also is a matter of knowing your army, luck, terrain, cards, PBS, OS ...
We're in the thread talking about medieval being a more common pick by players and I'm engaging in some speculation as to why that is. In case it needs re-stating, I don't think there are any "super" armies which guarantee victory. But when you're out to win, you increase your chances by stacking the things that are in your control and I think that might be why Medieval is more popular.
Quote from: Hayung_is on November 04, 2024, 01:36:53 PM
We're in the thread talking about medieval being a more common pick by players and I'm engaging in some speculation as to why that is. In case it needs re-stating, I don't think there are any "super" armies which guarantee victory. But when you're out to win, you increase your chances by stacking the things that are in your control and I think that might be why Medieval is more popular.
I suspect it is the availability of fully armoured knights, pikes and powerbows (including skilled) in various combinations.
From my personal perspective - it's the aesthetics such as armour, banners, plumes, etc that attract me to the latter armies (and the fact that armour is easier to paint😉).
Quote from: SteveO on November 04, 2024, 11:04:50 PM
From my personal perspective - it's the aesthetics such as armour, banners, plumes, etc that attract me to the latter armies (and the fact that armour is easier to paint😉).
Refer note on "broad brush" before I launched into my pontificating :P
I don't mean to conclude that people that play medieval armies are only doing so because they are "better" choices for winning. There is invariably an overlap of players who are more interested in that era.
No worries - pontificate away. Your view is very reasonable even though my predilection for the later armies is caused by other factors. Cheers.
Quote from: Hayung_is on November 04, 2024, 11:56:24 PM
Quote from: SteveO on November 04, 2024, 11:04:50 PM
From my personal perspective - it's the aesthetics such as armour, banners, plumes, etc that attract me to the latter armies (and the fact that armour is easier to paint😉).
Refer note on "broad brush" before I launched into my pontificating :P
I don't mean to conclude that people that play medieval armies are only doing so because they are "better" choices for winning. There is invariably an overlap of players who are more interested in that era.
And if the army is small it makes it easier to travel with :)
There is not much wrong with the later period armies if...you play by period.
I remember the author said that he wanted people to play by periods and even preferably by books to have as close as possible historical opponents.