Chatting on and off with people over the last few months the general vibe definitely seems to be that Britcon should be changed from an open to alternating an "early" and "late" theme. People are looking for a better mix of armies and at present armies of post c. 1200 CE are dominating by number. My plan is to do this from next year starting with the "early" theme.
Of course, need to decide how to define them ;D
A split between them mentioned to me by a couple of people is the start of the Norman list when we start seeing significant numbers of Charging Lancer, Devastating Chargers, Melee Expert cavalry appearing in lists.
No rush to decide but in the warm afterglow of Britcon 2024 it seems a good time to ask people for any suggestions or thoughts as how to do the split. The devious amongst us may like to go looking for any armies that may cause issues depending on where the split is ;)
Are charging lancers, devastating charger types the defining feature of the late armies that are dominating? Or given the late lists often seen, is it having powerbow or unusual pike units? Or is it just a convenient point to choose?
Would seem a shame for you gents not to have much in the way of open comps. You do a lot of themed events. Opens can be great for revealing game imbalances, etc (as well as keeping to the grand wargaming tradition of seeing NKE chariots fighting full plate knights, etc)
Don't have a dog in this fight (unlikely to travel to the UK), just curious
Martin
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 12, 2024, 01:46:04 PM
Are charging lancers, devastating charger types the defining feature of the late armies that are dominating? Or given the late lists often seen, is it having powerbow or unusual pike units? Or is it just a convenient point to choose?
Convenient as much as anything. Although it is (very) roughly about the halfway point in the number of lists across all the PDFs.
Taking an end date of 986 CE as the line for an "early theme" the following armies would be included (note some other armies may be restricted in their choices):
All Chariot Era lists (65 of these).
All Classical Era lists (138 of these).
All Early Medieval lists except: Anglo-Danish; Seljuk Turk, Great Seljuk Empire; Norman, Normans in Sicily and Italy; Cuman of Kipchak. (96 eligible)
Asian lists except: Later Northern Song, Western Xia, Later Northern Song, Western Xia, Pre-Conquest Mongol, Jurchen - Jin, Qara Khitan, Southern Song, Khwarazmian, Mongol Conquest, Golden Horde, Ilkhanate, Chagatai Khanate, Yuan Dynasty, Later Nomadic Mongol, Early Ming Chinese, Joseon Korean, Ming Chinese; Kamakura Samurai, Muromachi Samurai, Muromachi Peasant Uprising, Ikko Ikki; Chola Empire, Ghurid, Muslim Indian Sultanates, Vijayanagar; Medieval Dai Viet (new name for Lý, Trần and Hồ Vietnam); Moluccas and Philippine (new name); Thai Kingdoms; Bamarised Shan Kingdoms; Hanthawaddy Kingdom; Lan Xang. (88 eligible)
The following Medieval lists would be eligible: Christian Nubian; Berber (new list for 2025); Kingdom of Ghana; Beja; Kanem-Bornu; Abyssinian; Mogadishu Sultanates; Tuareg. (8 eligible)
The following Americas lists would be eligible: Muzo or Panche; Middle Formative Meso-American; Olmec, Teotihuacan, Classical Mayan, Chichimec, Mexica, Otomi, Toltec Empire. (9 eligible).
This would make 404 of the 645 lists eligible. (313 lists would be eligible in a post 987 CE "late theme").
You could of course make further tweaks such as allowing any of the Americas lists or Medieval-Africa lists into the "Early Theme".
May I make a plea that any competition that is running alongside a ReG competition should not allow any Renaissance list sets armies. The lists were only created because ReG didn't exist at the time and do not improve the balance of any wider-themed competition.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on August 12, 2024, 03:01:01 PM
May I make a plea that any competition that is running alongside a ReG competition should not allow any Renaissance list sets armies. The lists were only created because ReG didn't exist at the time and do not improve the balance of any wider-themed competition.
I am open to that.
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 12, 2024, 01:46:04 PM
Would seem a shame for you gents not to have much in the way of open comps. You do a lot of themed events. Opens can be great for revealing game imbalances, etc (as well as keeping to the grand wargaming tradition of seeing NKE chariots fighting full plate knights, etc)
Skullrollers is open (and I think should be). It has been a shame that Britcon has been as well. We are fortunate in the UK that there are enough events and enough players that we don't need to have a lot of open events.
I am unclear why you think revealing game imbalances in non-historical opponents contributes anything. If armies in themed events are generally balanced, then it implies the rules (and lists) are pretty good.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 12, 2024, 03:58:25 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on August 12, 2024, 03:01:01 PM
May I make a plea that any competition that is running alongside a ReG competition should not allow any Renaissance list sets armies. The lists were only created because ReG didn't exist at the time and do not improve the balance of any wider-themed competition.
I am open to that.
That would include Skullrollers?
That would be up to the organiser which isn't me - and if RJC's suggestion was followed only if there was a ReG comp alongside the MeG one.
I note Richard's plea for Rennaissance period armies not to be included in Open MeG tournaments where there is also a ReG tournament. That seems a good idea where you have the critical mass for two tournaments, which would be uncommon in Australia but possible. However, would you not also restrict the periods for ReG? Having not yet played ReG, are Italian Wars armies competitive against WSS armies?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 12, 2024, 03:58:25 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on August 12, 2024, 03:01:01 PM
May I make a plea that any competition that is running alongside a ReG competition should not allow any Renaissance list sets armies. The lists were only created because ReG didn't exist at the time and do not improve the balance of any wider-themed competition.
I am open to that.
then maybe the Late Swiss, Swabian league should move to the HRE or Valois list as , in at least the case of the Swiss their evolution to full blown pikes was a direct result of conflicts with 'high medieval' lists
FWIW if you consider the dates of all the armies used in BRITCON 2023 and 2024 and Skullrollers 2023, half of them are after 1317 CE.
My suggestion would be to add in Skullrollers 2024 and CANCON 2023 and 2024 and set the cut-off date to whatever the 50% mark is then.
By the way, the period from Octavian to Constantine seems surprisingly barren.
[attachment deleted by admin]
QuoteBy the way, the period from Octavian to Constantine seems surprisingly barren.
Perhaps a lack of "civilised" opponents capable of tackling roman armies unless you open to Asian armies
Lack of diversity ?
Quote from: badhabum on August 24, 2024, 08:25:31 PM
QuoteBy the way, the period from Octavian to Constantine seems surprisingly barren.
Perhaps a lack of "civilised" opponents capable of tackling roman armies unless you open to Asian armies
Lack of diversity ?
These are from open tournaments so it's mostly non-Roman armies you will be tackling, and they are open to Asian armies. And no-one is taking the Roman armies either (well, very few).
Quote from: LawrenceG on August 15, 2024, 12:22:40 PM
FWIW if you consider the dates of all the armies used in BRITCON 2023 and 2024 and Skullrollers 2023, half of them are after 1317 CE.
My suggestion would be to add in Skullrollers 2024 and CANCON 2023 and 2024 and set the cut-off date to whatever the 50% mark is then.
After adding in Skullrollers 2024 the median date drops to 1315 CE.
[attachment deleted by admin]
British/UK players are fortunate to have a choice and should exploit it. Here in Northern CA we do not really have enough players to run themes- they exclude too pany players who don't have more than 1-2 armies. Personally I love theme competitions and prefer them, but you have to dance with the one that brung you. Opens are fun, and I hope that as we slowly grow out player base we can get to themes.