Asked on WhatsApp.
If you pursue into new enemy in the charge phase it is a pursuit but you use charge combat factors and effects. So troops with integral shooters do not claim them and troops with Shieldwall cannot claim them (as they did not "stand to receive a charge").
If you pursued in the previous turn into fresh enemy and then get charged you still cannot claim integral shooters against the troops you pursued into (because they did not charge you) but you can claim integral shooters and shieldwall against any enemy who charged you as by that time you are standing to receive.
I now expect somebody will now find out that the rules don't actually say this.
Update - the rules don't actually say what I have written here! Which shows that you need to read the rules calmly and carefully! We will provide a further update when we have completed doing that.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 31, 2024, 09:59:25 AM
If you pursued in the previous turn into fresh enemy and then get charged you still cannot claim integral shooters against the troops you pursued into (because they did not charge you) but you can claim integral shooters and shieldwall against any enemy who charged you as by that time you are standing to receive.
Think Shieldwall will count in both cases (enemy pursued into and enemy charging you) as the criteria for it not applying is "It cannot be claimed by TuGs that have done a charge, countercharge, or intercept in the
current phase." - the current phase bit being key as you are now fighting in a phase subsequent to the one you pursued in.
Recommend take as written ... as was deliberate.
Essentially tropes have perused into then NOT charged them ... so fight a charge combat with factor applying as troops not charge so can't claim standing to receive etc.
Therefore more chaos than if just charged and fixes my cheese I was keen to avoid..
Shieldwall would apply buy I like that as its defensive not causing damage.
Si
Ok so if you pursue in the charge phase, and make contact with another unit. You are neither moving (so foot don't count as moving foot), nor standing to receive, but something in between.
So long spear infantry pursuing into pike would count +2 for long spear. The lancers would still get their +2 for charging lance, but they would not get an additional +1 for moving foot.
GK
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 31, 2024, 10:33:24 AM
Essentially tropes have perused into then NOT charged them ... so fight a charge combat with factor applying as troops not charge so can't claim standing to receive etc.
If the pursuing troops are deemed to have not charged then they can claim all the advantages of standing to receive as the latter is having not charged, etc. (per QRS, glossary says have not declared a charge FWIW and that is what is used when playing as even if you declare a charge you may not actually charge due to the move sequence).
Tour missing the subtlety there nick.
It is that the impacted troops have not been charged. So they cannot claim the ** items. The only troops who re charged are those reached in the charges.
Si
Slight cross purposes.
I am talking about the impacting troops not the impacted - this is what the original query was about.
I was going to come on to the impacted due to the potential for different interpretations due to the slightly different QRS and Glossary wordings of Standing to Receive ;D
actually the question asked was
'Yep, but standing to receive a charge is defined as not charging, counter charging or intercepting. Foot are also singled out in pursuit move section of the rules as not being classed as charging as they didn't 'declare' a charge. So shieldwall also counts for pursuing foot who hit mounted'
which led to a discussion about 10.4 in the pursuit section of the rules pdf which led to this
' my foot count as moving for any mounted they pursued into (but didn't declare a charge) so don't count shieldwall or integral shooter but do count shieldwall and integral shooter to any mounted that charge them in the same phase as they will fight the pursuing combat? '
end result according to the rules my pursuing foot are both stationary and moving (charging) in the same phase
Maybe this discussion will collapse the wave function and we'll know what state they are actually in ;)
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 31, 2024, 10:39:15 AM
If the pursuing troops are deemed to have not charged then they can claim all the advantages of standing to receive as the latter is having not charged, etc. (per QRS, glossary says have not declared a charge FWIW and that is what is used when playing as even if you declare a charge you may not actually charge due to the move sequence).
So if you make an undeclared forced charge you are standing to receive?
No.
Nik RJC and I will have a chat tonight as it's going round in circles and doesn't need to.
Si
PSA
As this is getting a bit complex Simon, Richard, and I are going to get our heads together and talk it through so we can look at Simon's original intention as well as the rules wording.
We will then post an official response ASAP.
I may be confusing the issues by not really knowing the questions.... so yes let's gather properly.
Okay - had a discussion with Simon and Nik.
Rules involved here are:
Page 106. Please read the entire section to get the context. I have merely listed the key points here and the text in italics is my commentary.
8.D. Pursuit Moves
9. TuGs that cannot run away or skirmish stand to receive.
10. If a new enemy is contacted:
10.1 Treat this as a charge move. This shows that a pursuit move is treated as a charge.
10.4 If infantry contact fresh enemy and are also charged by mounted, they do not count as having charged (as no charge was declared).
Appendix 1.F SHIELDWALL
2. It cannot be claimed by TuGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase.
GLOSSARY
Standing to Receive: Staying in a position to receive a charge - Not have declared a charge, run away, skirmish, countercharge or intercept.
COMMENTARY
10.1 shows that a pursuit move that contacts enemy is treated as a charge.
10.4 is actually redundant, it achieves nothing. (For information, it was introduced as a clarification, but it actually achieves nothing).
The key concept is Standing to Receive. The important bit is "staying in position". The examples "not having declared a charge, run away, skirmish, countercharge or intercept." Pursuit should be added to this list. Troops pursuing are not standing to receive.
So to answer the original questions in the WhatsApp group:
Integral Shooters give charge combat claims against chargers when standing to receive a charge from ahead of their front line (p 124 PDF edition). A pursuit is treated as a charge so enemy contacted ahead of their front line by pursuers can make charge combat claims against pursuers.
Shieldwall cannot be claimed by TUGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase. So if a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Charge Phase and contacts fresh enemy it will not be able to claim Shieldwall (as the combat will be in the same phase). If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).
Note: Pursuers are not standing to receive, so if the pursuers had long spear and they are charged by lancers (CL), the lancers will be able to make the charge claim for CL.
Richard
So simply common sense 🤷♂️
FWIW People often shorten the +1 to "foot charging mounted" but it has never actually been that. It has always been "vs. foot who are NOT standing to receive" which is defined in the glossary. So important to remember what the factor really is as very deliberate.
Happy skull rolling and see many of you at BadCon.
Si
Additional clarification will be useful here because:
An UG could declare a charge but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.
An UG could not declare a charge, have a forced charge, but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.
An UG could stay in a position because it skirmished but moved zero due to a low dice throw.
An UG that pursues in the fighting phase but fights its combat in the charge phase of the next turn stayed in its position during that charge phase.
I think we need additional clarification on what happens if foot pursue, and are charged by mounted in the next charge phase. Does this change if the pursuit hit something or the pursuit hit nothing?
The intention of 10.4 appears to be that the pursuing infantry that hit something count as "stand to receive" any new charges, but RJC's italics contradict that. If pursuers that hit nothing do not count as "stand to receive" any new charges, then I think this will be a significant change to how we've been playing. But if the UG's status vs new charges depends on whether they hit something or not in the previous pursuit, that is not mentally ergonomic.
FWIW It is intuitive that pursuers do not count as "stand to receive" versus whatever they pursued into.
QuoteFWIW It is intuitive that pursuers do not count as "stand to receive" versus whatever they pursued into.
Indeed. And intended so. I grant you a could have been a bit more precise and complete.
So if they hit anything in the pursuit the intent is they are 'moving' for that charge phase whether in the game or next one.
But we don't want memory effects in the game so once that pursuit is over buy completing the phase they are back to usual rules.
QuoteAn UG could declare a charge but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.
lone charing they are 'moving' which is why the factors are the same for both.
QuoteAn UG could not declare a charge, have a forced charge, but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.
. As above
QuoteAn UG could stay in a position because it skirmished but moved zero due to a low dice throw.
I think its mute as all relevant ** factors are ones that skirmishers do not have. Bitwould be as above.
QuoteAn UG that pursues in the fighting phase but fights its combat in the charge phase of the next turn stayed in its position during that charge phase.
Considered 'moving'
QuoteI think we need additional clarification on what happens if foot pursue, and are charged by mounted in the next charge phase. Does this change if the pursuit hit something or the pursuit hit nothing?
. If the charge phase in which they are fighting their pursuit combat the are 'moving' otherwise its a fresh start with no memory effects. Phases (of battle) are not fixed time amounts in the conceptual development of the rules but rather sequencing of events.
Hope that helps.
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 05, 2024, 08:01:07 AM
QuoteAn UG that pursues in the fighting phase but fights its combat in the charge phase of the next turn stayed in its position during that charge phase.
Considered 'moving'
Si
Do you actually mean that or do you mean it counts as moving to the tug it contacted in the melee phase of the last turn, otherwise anyone that charges
it in the current charge phase gets to count it as moving as well.... which would lead to the question, if I pursued in the previous turn's melee phase I'd count moving in the next charge phase even if my pursuit hit nothing?
Summary of my understanding so far:
Pursuit hits no fresh enemy:
This UG is treated exactly the same as an UG that did not pursue.
Pursuit does hit fresh enemy:
Not sure if files that did not contact fresh enemy are treated as "Pursuit hits no fresh enemy" above. Simplest to treat the whole UG as having charged for all combats, so I have assumed this, but not sure if it is intended.
This UG
Counts as having charged for combat against that fresh enemy.
Counts as having charged for combat against enemy that pursue into it later in the same phase.
Counts as having charged for combat against enemy that charge it or pursue into it in a later phase.
(pdf 8.D.10.4 is wrong and should be deleted).
Cannot shoot in the Charge Phase, but can shoot in the Shooting Phase if the pursuit was in the previous turn.
The enemy contacted by the pursuit can claim for Integral Shooters, if applicable.
Standing to receive:
An UG is standing to receive unless it declared a charge, marked a forced charge, countercharged, intercepted, skirmished or ran away (whether it actually moved any distance or not in any of those case), or counts as having charged (due to contacting fresh enemy in a pursuit).
Shieldwall:
Shieldwall "cannot be claimed by TuGs that have done a charge, countercharge, or intercept in the current phase".
"done a charge" means "declared a charge, or marked a forced charge, even if it didn't actually make a charge move because the enemy charged first; or counts as having charged (due to contacting fresh enemy in a pursuit in the current phase)."
Is that correct?
One to add to the mix, when does combat count as starting?
if I pursue in the melee phase and hit fresh enemy can I then expand out in the same melee phase in 5.5 of the turn sequence?
Quote from: tarnowski1 on February 06, 2024, 08:55:49 AM
One to add to the mix, when does combat count as starting?
if I pursue in the melee phase and hit fresh enemy can I then expand out in the same melee phase in 5.5 of the turn sequence?
I believe this was discussed and the decision taken that it is immediate. This has implications for both pursuers and those pursued into. The pursuers potentially can create new files (MF1) and those pursued into can turn to face a flank (MF2). Obviously you must have cards to do this.
This is a difference between the charge phase pursuit and the shooting or fighting phase pursuit.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 06, 2024, 10:35:04 AM
Quote from: tarnowski1 on February 06, 2024, 08:55:49 AM
One to add to the mix, when does combat count as starting?
if I pursue in the melee phase and hit fresh enemy can I then expand out in the same melee phase in 5.5 of the turn sequence?
I believe this was discussed and the decision taken that it is immediate. This has implications for both pursuers and those pursued into. The pursuers potentially can create new files (MF1) and those pursued into can turn to face a flank (MF2). Obviously you must have cards to do this.
This is a difference between the charge phase pursuit and the shooting or fighting phase pursuit.
Yes, I think it has been stated before that you are in combat as soon as you are in a position to fight, you don't have to wait until the melee phase, so e.g. a supporting file is a supporting file during the shooting phase before it has fought any combats.
I don't see how this is any different whatever phase you pursued in, although you would obviously have to wait until the appropriate time in the sequence to execute the MF1 or MF2.
An interesting quirk, if I understand the rules correctly, is if pursuers pursue into a flank and the impacted UG turns to face that flank, the pursuers still qualify for the flank charge bonus in the subsequent charge phase (because you qualify at the time you charged). But would the bases that turned get their factors for fighting to their front in the charge phase, or would it be the inverse case of a base hit on the flank edge by a charge that does not qualify as a flank charge?
Quote from: LawrenceG on February 06, 2024, 11:16:04 AM
An interesting quirk, if I understand the rules correctly, is if pursuers pursue into a flank and the impacted UG turns to face that flank, the pursuers still qualify for the flank charge bonus in the subsequent charge phase (because you qualify at the time you charged). But would the bases that turned get their factors for fighting to their front in the charge phase, or would it be the inverse case of a base hit on the flank edge by a charge that does not qualify as a flank charge?
Nice spot! That is what the rules say! (page 60).
I don't think "fighting frontally" has been defined. The rules however imply at various points it is how you are attacked that determines this, so if the opponent is claiming the flank charge then you cannot claim to be fighting frontally.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 02, 2024, 06:53:36 AM
Integral Shooters give charge combat claims against chargers when standing to receive a charge from ahead of their front line (p 124 PDF edition). A pursuit is treated as a charge so enemy contacted ahead of their front line by pursuers can make charge combat claims against pursuers.
Shieldwall cannot be claimed by TUGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase. So if a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Charge Phase and contacts fresh enemy it will not be able to claim Shieldwall (as the combat will be in the same phase). If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).
Note: Pursuers are not standing to receive, so if the pursuers had long spear and they are charged by lancers (CL), the lancers will be able to make the charge claim for CL.
Richard
[/i]
Not clear to me :
okay if : If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).
What about the integral shooters ? do they count in the next phase ?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 07, 2024, 07:29:14 AM
Quote from: Jilu on February 07, 2024, 04:36:21 AM
Not clear to me :
okay if : If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).
What about the integral shooters ? do they count in the next phase ?
An UG that pursues is treated as charging so it will not be able to claim shieldwall or claim for integral shooters.
In a previous reply you said "If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn)."
I managed to get myself confused!
An UG that pursues is treated as charging so it will not be able to claim for integral shooters.
An UG that pursues in the fighting phase is not charging in the current phase so can claim Shieldwall.
Apologies.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 07, 2024, 10:20:48 AM
I managed to get myself confused!
An UG that pursues is treated as charging so it will not be able to claim for integral shooters.
An UG that pursues in the fighting phase is not charging in the current phase so can claim Shieldwall.
Apologies.
it is a bit confusing.
So pursuing in the charging phase, no claims for integral shooters, shieldwall, if foot they are not standing to receive?
If pursuing in the fighting phase, they can claim everything available, even standing to receive in the charging phase of the next turn ?
It is a bit, but I think Richard's post a few days ago explains.
Quote
COMMENTARY
10.1 shows that a pursuit move that contacts enemy is treated as a charge.
10.4 is actually redundant, it achieves nothing. (For information, it was introduced as a clarification, but it actually achieves nothing).
The key concept is Standing to Receive. The important bit is "staying in position". The examples "not having declared a charge, run away, skirmish, countercharge or intercept." Pursuit should be added to this list. Troops pursuing are not standing to receive.
So to answer the original questions in the WhatsApp group:
Integral Shooters give charge combat claims against chargers when standing to receive a charge from ahead of their front line (p 124 PDF edition). A pursuit is treated as a charge so enemy contacted ahead of their front line by pursuers can make charge combat claims against pursuers.
Shieldwall cannot be claimed by TUGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase. So if a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Charge Phase and contacts fresh enemy it will not be able to claim Shieldwall (as the combat will be in the same phase). If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).
Note: Pursuers are not standing to receive, so if the pursuers had long spear and they are charged by lancers (CL), the lancers will be able to make the charge claim for CL.
Richard
See also the errata item on the glossary definition on Standing to Receive - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2787.0
Quote from: Jilu on February 08, 2024, 05:59:55 AM
So pursuing in the charging phase, no claims for integral shooters, shieldwall, if foot they are not standing to receive?
If pursuing in the fighting phase, they can claim everything available, even standing to receive in the charging phase of the next turn ?
Not quite.
Pursuing troops that contact new enemy NEVER count as standing to receive.
Troops that pursue in the fighting phase can count Shieldwall as Shieldwall will apply as long as the charge is not in the same phase as the combat.
Troops that pursue in the charge phase cannot count Shieldwall if they contact new enemy.
Richard
I have modified this response as Lawrence has correctly pointed out, if the pursuit does not contact new enemy then it is not treated as a charge.