I just noticed that a superior battle chariot + spear costs 222 points ( experienced shooter, bow, melee expert and shoot and charge ) Compared to the 260 points of a sup fully armoured + armoured horse cataphract, long spear and devastating charger I started wondering what would I choose ?
Shooting : will be on black dice ...tricky
At impact, battle chariots have the upperhand . So a lucky charge can make your day .
During melee, the Cats have the upperhand thanks to the armour and if still 2 ranks deep, they will negate the melee expert of the BC .
Also the BC will be very unhappy vs CL and the Cats will be mostly on equal footing .
So choices to make but I find the difference in points is a disadvantage for the cats .
I forgot that those chariots are also "devastating chargers" which brings them 240 points and on yellow vs long spear, devastating charges cats...
But the cgariot has a "nemesis" the superior CL, melee expert ...drilled it is only 189 points and at the charge and melee phase it is green on green ...
I would see it as the march of technology - sounds about right to me in terms of factors.
Presume you are querying points?
Don't have much experience of cataphracts but played a comp a couple of months ago using an army with 24 battlechariots (4 units of 6). 1/2 were as you describe (superior, short spear, bow, shoot and charge, melee expert), 1/2 were average and not melee expert.
They are definitely in a much better place now than previously. A couple of things I found:
1) The ability to charge for free but to never have to is vital when dealing with infantry targets you don't wan't to charge (I fought Spartan's round one). Essentially you sit in front and shoot. If they charge you charge as well, trigger your charge shooting and fight at great impact factors. The melee is still rough but it gives you a chance. (Didn't really work this time but let me hang on for a draw)
2) I broke off a lot as it is generally the impact where the chariots are at their best (thanks to factors and shooting). This is made more possible thanks to the card efficiency of chariots (no cards for charging). I tried to (and would heartily recommend) always keeping a general with a unit of battlechariots to facilitate breaking off.
3) Shoot and charge chariots are death on wheels to anything that wants to try to skirmish away from them. I didn't fight any shooty cavalry armies but the three classical armies I fought all had the typical javelin armed cavalry who often found themselves forced to either stand or run rather than skirmish and were still sometimes caught. I also managed to ride down some SUG's.
There are still some unfortunate match ups but I definitely think that Battlechariots now have a place in open comps. How cataphracts fare in comparison, I am less sure.
Martin
Well the discussion is there to be a discussion . Today we playted neo-assyrian vs middle sassanid . I did my utmoist to avoid the battle chariots as they would have crushed me and managed to kill the assyrian by going for other units . But it was close .
Impact is the problem, melee the cats have the upperhand
Superior formed loose fully armoured knights (no armoured horse), charging lancer, devastating chargers, melee expert are 241 points, basically the same as the chariots. What would you choose? Tough call. The knights move faster, are less affected by terrain, and will be green against white in both charge and melee phase, but have forced charges and no bow. Of course, in historical battles they won't meet, but an interesting question in terms of game balance :) I think I might go for the lancers...
The fully armoured/close order combo is not particularly good value for money, but long spear on a horse is pretty good.
I do think that the ability of chariots to get within 1BW of skirmishers and shoot them up on green dice (before they get any shooting back from the skirmishers!) while they charge in is a bit dubious. Light horse are usually 2 wide with no general nearby so it doesn't take much to slow them down. Not that it is a chariot only problem, Byzantines do it even better because they move faster. They can double move 10BW to within 1BW of a light cavalry SUG, shoot it on green before they even get any damage in return. Not bad :D
I would still go for superior short spear skilled archer Mitanni chariots, as they gave yet to lose to my friendly local Assyrian (but it's been bl**dy close)
Shoot and charge - Yep they can. And no It's never worked for me yet :)
Plus of course, that's your 1200+ point unit messing about with some skirmishers which is not their job!
If the chariots are evade capable I say it's about fair.
Cats of course should bounce most of it off, but will never catch them so will get shot a lot more - again, not too bad.
At impact vs superior cats the BC would be on yellow vs white ...on melee the opposite if cats do still have 2 ranks deep ...the impact will determine who has the upperhand :)
On balance I think we have got chariots to a nice place where they are spot on in period and playable out of period.
My Parthians had some trouble vs Battle Chariots (Chinese), but felt ok. Where I shot them up a bit first it all went well.
Si