Quote from: martymagnificent on November 14, 2023, 10:53:01 PM
I don't consider legionaries a problem in general. The multiplier for exceptional is, however, clearly too low. There are cases where it is cheaper to be exceptional than superior melee expert! There's a reason most players will always take every exceptional they can get.
I read this and thought surely not so I got out the new 2024 points just to be sure and yes, most of the time Exceptional seems to be cheaper than Superior melee expert. This is a fairly hefty problem but one I have never looked at because other than the Meerkats I don't use exceptionals
Quote from: Hammy on November 15, 2023, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: martymagnificent on November 14, 2023, 10:53:01 PM
I don't consider legionaries a problem in general. The multiplier for exceptional is, however, clearly too low. There are cases where it is cheaper to be exceptional than superior melee expert! There's a reason most players will always take every exceptional they can get.
I read this and thought surely not so I got out the new 2024 points just to be sure and yes, most of the time Exceptional seems to be cheaper than Superior melee expert. This is a fairly hefty problem but one I have never looked at because other than the Meerkats I don't use exceptionals
Whist true, fortunately the situation does not occur in the army lists (I believe).
Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 15, 2023, 12:54:41 PM
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Whist true, fortunately the situation does not occur in the army lists (I believe).
Do you mean there is no list within which the exceptionals are cheaper than the sup ME version of the same thing?
Or
There is no army with superior ME troops that could meet another army with the exceptional version of the same thing for cheaper?
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive. In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.
Richard
Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 15, 2023, 12:54:41 PM
Quote from: Hammy on November 15, 2023, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: martymagnificent on November 14, 2023, 10:53:01 PM
I don't consider legionaries a problem in general. The multiplier for exceptional is, however, clearly too low. There are cases where it is cheaper to be exceptional than superior melee expert! There's a reason most players will always take every exceptional they can get.
I read this and thought surely not so I got out the new 2024 points just to be sure and yes, most of the time Exceptional seems to be cheaper than Superior melee expert. This is a fairly hefty problem but one I have never looked at because other than the Meerkats I don't use exceptionals
Whist true, fortunately the situation does not occur in the army lists (I believe).
A bit of theory hammer on the spreadsheet has a number where it is true but with the possible troops that are actually in lists (I have checked most but not all the lists) where there is an option for superior ME or exceptional not ME but otherwise the same it seems that the exceptionals are slightly more expensive but still a bargain compared.
Exceptionnal spartans do cost less than sup spartans with melee expert and such cases do appear here and there
Quote from: badhabum on November 15, 2023, 08:07:17 PM
Exceptionnal spartans do cost less than sup spartans with melee expert and such cases do appear here and there
Exceptional Spartan hippeis (who have no ME) 170 points/base, Superior Spartiates with ME 163 points/base.
Whilst not cheaper the additional amount is small to the point of being more or less irrelevant.
Is there a reason not to just up the multiplier for exceptional? They are clearly too good value at the moment.
Martin
Well, it does seem to be what Richard is getting at with this reply ;D
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 15, 2023, 03:43:29 PM
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive. In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.
Richard
Currently the multiplier for Exceptionals is 1.7 compared to 1.4 for Superior.
What are the multipliers for ME and SSp?
There aren't any. They are a cost that is then multiplied by the quality multiplier.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 15, 2023, 03:43:29 PM
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive. In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.
Richard
That formula says exceptional should be a multiplier of a little more than 1.87 for infantry and 1.92 for cavalry.
1.9 sounds good
Martin
Funny you should say that 8)
Quote from: LawrenceG on November 15, 2023, 11:24:07 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 15, 2023, 03:43:29 PM
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive. In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.
Richard
That formula says exceptional should be a multiplier of a little more than 1.87 for infantry and 1.92 for cavalry.
The other benchmark you could use is the upgrade from superior to exceptional is the same in effect as upgrading from average to superior. Therefore the multiplier should be 1.4 x 1.4 = 1.96 .
As Nick has hinted, the plan is to up the multiplier for Exceptionals to 1.9.
Richard
Just thinking about my lists and I hadn't realised before that several of my armies are based round Exceptionals. This will hit both my Spartans and my Byzantine Varangian Guard. Nevertheless I think this is the right move - it was always strange that Exceptional Spartans cost about the same as Superior ME ones. Perhaps this might also be enough to tip towards balance for those who think elite Roman forces are too powerful?
Now they are more expensive and less likely to distort an army perhaps you could consider using Exceptional in one two more places? For example (and hopefully not to revive an argument that got put to bed) how about an Exceptional, Unprotected, Fleet of Foot Almughavar unit? The pro would be that it would get closer to the described historical performance (basically charge everything and run it over!), the con would be that there were no guard units as far as I know, all the Almughavars were equally scary ... and it would definitely be distorting to make them all Exceptional!!!
Quote from: daveparish on November 16, 2023, 01:02:19 PM
Now they are more expensive and less likely to distort an army perhaps you could consider using Exceptional in one two more places? For example (and hopefully not to revive an argument that got put to bed) how about an Exceptional, Unprotected, Fleet of Foot Almughavar unit? The pro would be that it would get closer to the described historical performance (basically charge everything and run it over!), the con would be that there were no guard units as far as I know, all the Almughavars were equally scary ... and it would definitely be distorting to make them all Exceptional!!!
If everyone is exceptional, then nobody is. Would be interesting to try out in a friendly game, though.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 15, 2023, 08:37:06 PM
Quote from: badhabum on November 15, 2023, 08:07:17 PM
Exceptionnal spartans do cost less than sup spartans with melee expert and such cases do appear here and there
Exceptional Spartan hippeis (who have no ME) 170 points/base, Superior Spartiates with ME 163 points/base.
Whilst not cheaper the additional amount is small to the point of being more or less irrelevant.
Sorry spoke from memory but the message is the same . The difference if minimal and I always use those Hippeis and they are good.
As Dave, I have some armies that are based on the schock effect of the "exceptional" UG that can strike hard especially as it is not too costly compared to a SUP and might break the enemy line. I did it with Hippeis, Achaemenid mounted guard, Assyrian chariotry, Xth legion, Varangian guard..and it works . So yes I will be sad if they become more expensive but it seems logical .
They are good even without melee expert, they are immune to skilled shooters and damn good at fighting ! They are a game changer if used wisely
Quote from: badhabum on November 16, 2023, 03:47:54 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 15, 2023, 08:37:06 PM
Quote from: badhabum on November 15, 2023, 08:07:17 PM
Exceptionnal spartans do cost less than sup spartans with melee expert and such cases do appear here and there
Exceptional Spartan hippeis (who have no ME) 170 points/base, Superior Spartiates with ME 163 points/base.
Whilst not cheaper the additional amount is small to the point of being more or less irrelevant.
Sorry spoke from memory but the message is the same . The difference if minimal and I always use those Hippeis and they are good.
Indeed - I think there is general agreement that this needs fixing.