Hi Richard
Just a query re the Breton Cavalry being Experienced Javelin with no short spear. Obviously before they had a short spear which meant they had a chance in combat. Now they only have Experienced Javelin. So unless im going nuts !!! They move to within 2 x BW throw a couple of white dice and then if themselves are charged they will probably die as they have no combat weapon. I could understand if perhaps they were light horse or perhaps even Flex horse but it makes them extremely vulnerable and unusable IMO. My understanding is that they would have used a spear to thrust or throw similar to the Norman cavalry probably up until the late 11th century.
A short spear is only 1 factor in charge combat. Experienced javelin is normally a white dice compared to a black dice. Given the cavalry probably should be skirmishing or running away anyway - I think it stupid to suggest that this means they are unusable. It is clearly just a case of what they are fighting.
Richard
Have you considered making them Formed Flex to give them a little more skirmish ability ?
One last thing. In the Breton Army list they are the same, but why then an option to upgrade them to Short Spear and Devastating charge ? Its quite a difference. I completely get the skirmish thing with light or flex horse, just think that Breton and Norman Milites would have been very similar. Personally i feel that if they should be more skirmish type troops then they would be better served as skirmish or flex troops with perhaps a very limited few as Formed loose Short spear dev charge ie the best of the best.
The option was carefully considered. Didn't want to reintroduce more skirmishers back into the armies - they were not primarily skirmishers in the same way as Steppe warriors for example. The reason Bretons are SSp, Dev Charger is they weren't as good as Norman milites.
Richard
Just noticed. Norman Milites in Sicilian Normans can be downgraded to Exp Jav only but not in the Norman list, Also Normans in Italy can have Norman Scouts but again not in Norman list.
That is because Norman armies in Sicily and Italy were not the same as those back in Normandy - they had access to different troops and adapted to different enemies and situations.
Different armies.
Normans get Bretons or servientes. Normans in Italy and Sicily used more light horse because of the nature of their opponents (Byzantines and Arabs). If they were identical armies, they wouldn't need separate lists....
Richard
As the Norman states/Territories were adjacent and no doubt borders ebbed and flowed over the years, to me this would indicate that they were similar in arms and armour although the Bretons probably less aggressive. Why not allow the Norman list to have a unit of scouts ie skirmish light horse. Clearly the Bretons did. Bearing in mind the territory covered by the two it would appear to me that Normans and Bretons would have needed scouts etc. The Bretons list has them but the Norman list does not. Worst case I would have thought Normans would have hired mercenaries ie Breton light horse.
Quote from: Robin on November 13, 2023, 06:45:29 PM
Why not allow the Norman list to have a unit of scouts ie skirmish light horse. Clearly the Bretons did.
I think it is far from clear that the Bretons did. IMO their inclusion in the list is generous speculation and, therefore, should certainly not be allowed to neighbours.