during my last game, we had a different point of view, my partner gave me a clear and completely understandable explanation, but when I read the QRS quietly at home, I was lost.
QRS: "** standing to receive = not charged, countercharged or intercepted"
The definition of standing to receive just talks about not moving, but on the flank are you standing to receive? probably not.
QRS: Preferred Claims "only be made when fighting to a files front"
Does the lancer's claim depend on whether or not the file charged on the flank has a claim?
Clearly, what are the claims of charging lancer who charge the flank:
of not moving (standing to receive?) Long Spear
A= 4 (for flanking) + 0 against long spear stand to received
B= 4 (for flanking) + 2 charging lancer (claim LSp not applicable in flank combat)
of elephant
C= 4 (for flanking) + 0 against elephant
D= 4 (for flanking) + 2 (claim Elephant not applicable in flank combat)
This is something I was also wondering about.
CL gets a claim of 0 against certain things.
Is this a claim of 0 by the CL, or is it a claim cancellation by the all the opponents it applies against?
The wording is different for other characterisics: + N vs X except Y. This is clearly a claim cancellation by Y IMO.
I might be missing something (I often am), but what difference would it make if it is a claim cancellation?
It could have said "+2 vs any except El, BWg, or standing to receive foot LSp, foot PA or Pk".
The foot LSp are standing to receive if they didn't charge, counter-charge or intercept.
CL charging standing to receive LSp in the flank have no preferred claim but get the +4 general claim for charging in the flank.
The foot LSp has no preferred claim because they are hit in the flank.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 25, 2023, 12:26:50 PM
I might be missing something (I often am), but what difference would it make if it is a claim cancellation?
It could have said "+2 vs any except El, BWg, or standing to receive foot LSp, foot PA or Pk".
The foot LSp are standing to receive if they didn't charge, counter-charge or intercept.
CL charging standing to receive LSp in the flank have no preferred claim but get the +4 general claim for charging in the flank.
The foot LSp has no preferred claim because they are hit in the flank.
Richard
The claims table says:
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front.If foot LSp etc
cancels the Lancer's +2 claim, then that cancellation does not apply if the LSp etc is not fighting to its front.
Orhave I totally misunderstood this table?
Quote from: LawrenceG on October 25, 2023, 12:49:14 PM
The claims table says: All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front.
If foot LSp etc cancels the Lancer's +2 claim, then that cancellation does not apply if the LSp etc is not fighting to its front.
Or have I totally misunderstood this table?
So whether it is a cancellation effect or not matters. My view is that it should be treated as a cancellation effect (for consistency with everything else), but I will seek confirmation.
Clearly it needs clarifying....
Richard
from the last clarifications document before teh digital compendium
'QRS Add "and cancellation effects" after All below claims... in the heading to both Preferred Claims table. As written you cannot claim SSp, CL, etc. claims when making a flank/rear charge against pike, etc. who have stood to receive as it does not specify that it only prevents them if making a frontal contact However, diagram on page 151 has a flank charging unit claiming the SSp. The diagram is correct and the "cancellation effects" only apply to contacts to the front of the file; a flank/rear charge attracts the full claim. This also applies to the Melee Combat claim for mounted/chariot Melee Expert.'
Indeed, I have confirmed that it is regarded as a claim cancellation effect and so the flank/rear charge attracts the full claim.
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Richard
So
VS standing to receive LSp
4 (for flank) + 2 charging lancer (no claim cancellation for LSp)
VS elephant
4 (for flank) + 2 (no claim cancellation for Elephant)
Quote from: philfigo on October 25, 2023, 06:15:49 PM
So
VS standing to receive LSp
4 (for flank) + 2 charging lancer (no claim cancellation for LSp)
VS elephant
4 (for flank) + 2 (no claim cancellation for Elephant)
V Elephant is 4 for flank + 0 for fighting el or bwg.
The factor for fighting an elephant is 0, its not a cancellation.
As it's not
'VS standing to receive LSp
4 (for flank) + 2 charging lancer (no claim cancellation for LSp)'
It's
VS standing to receive LSp in flank/rear
4 (for flank) + 2 charging lancer against others.
If you see what I mean? 'standing to recieve' is applicable only to fighting them frontally so it falls into the 'other' category.
Elephants are still elephants so it's still +0 factor.
Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 25, 2023, 07:01:26 PM
V Elephant is 4 for flank + 0 for fighting el or bwg.
The factor for fighting an elephant is 0, its not a cancellation.
As it's not
'VS standing to receive LSp
4 (for flank) + 2 charging lancer (no claim cancellation for LSp)'
It's
VS standing to receive LSp in flank/rear
4 (for flank) + 2 charging lancer against others.
If you see what I mean? 'standing to recieve' is applicable only to fighting them frontally so it falls into the 'other' category.
Elephants are still elephants so it's still +0 factor.
ok, so
for elephant we don't apply any cancellation as it is write in the QRS "All below claims and
cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front"
We apply only to "standing to receive** foot LSp, foot PA, or Pk" on the flank
Elephants are still elephants but foot LSp don't still LSp because on the flank
vs elephant +4 +0
vs LSp standing to receive or not (it is the same) +4 +2
is that right?
IMO if the "0" is a cancellation effect, then it applies to El, BWg and the various foot. I think Matt is reading too much into the wording.
And I do believe the "0" is intended to be a cancellation effect from author discussion some time ago.
Which is a shame as I like the idea that CL always get a claim of 0 against nellies and wagons :(
Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 25, 2023, 09:10:50 PM
IMO if the "0" is a cancellation effect, then it applies to El, BWg and the various foot. I think Matt is reading too much into the wording.
And I do believe the "0" is intended to be a cancellation effect from author discussion some time ago.
Which is a shame as I like the idea that CL always get a claim of 0 against nellies and wagons :(
For wagons, at least, pdf 13.B.7 Enemy cannot claim combat advantages for flank or rear against battlewagons whether in
column or line.
could be construed as negating the negation of the cancellation, if you consider that a "combat advantage for flank or rear".
so I resume
CL vs WWG = 0 (no claim or cancelation)
CL vs all other = 6 (4 flank + 2 CL)
am I right?
Quote from: philfigo on October 26, 2023, 09:16:56 AM
so I resume
CL vs WWG = 0 (no claim or cancelation)
CL vs all other = 6 (4 flank + 2 CL)
am I right?
What a tangled web we weave when we try to write wargames rules!
Personally, I agree with Nik in that I don't think CL should get the +2 vs Elephants hit in flank or rear.
This would be best expressed by re-phrasing the QRS to say "0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others cancelled by Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".
Using "cancelled" instead of "except" throughout the QRS would be clearer.
Would anyone object if that was the ruling....
ok
this would give
CL vs WWG = 0
CL vs elephant = 4 (claim: flank nothing more)
Cl vs all other = 6 (claim: flank + CL)
same for Foot or Mounted Devastating charger vs Elephant
in fact the type of troop wwg or elephant could cancel the attacker's claims in all directions
but all others type of troop could cancel the attacker's claims only on their front
it's clear to me
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 26, 2023, 09:36:08 AM
Quote from: philfigo on October 26, 2023, 09:16:56 AM
so I resume
CL vs WWG = 0 (no claim or cancelation)
CL vs all other = 6 (4 flank + 2 CL)
am I right?
What a tangled web we weave when we try to write wargames rules!
Personally, I agree with Nik in that I don't think CL should get the +2 vs Elephants hit in flank or rear.
This would be best expressed by re-phrasing the QRS to say "0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others cancelled by Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".
Using "cancelled" instead of "except" throughout the QRS would be clearer.
Would anyone object if that was the ruling....
Nik's arguing it is +2 in flank of elephants, I'm arguing it isnt and is 0 as its 'elephants'
as to wording , how about
"0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others but cancelled by frontally contacting standing** Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".
Quote from: tarnowski1 on October 26, 2023, 10:45:13 AM
as to wording , how about
"0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others but cancelled by frontally contacting standing** Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".
Not to be pedantic, but could that last bit not be construed as meaning that cancellation happens if front of CL contacts LSp ?
Maybe something like :
"0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others but cancelled by if fighting the front of standing to receive Foot LSp, Foot PA or Pk".Best,
Antoine
Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 25, 2023, 09:10:50 PM
IMO if the "0" is a cancellation effect, then it applies to El, BWg and the various foot. I think Matt is reading too much into the wording.
And I do believe the "0" is intended to be a cancellation effect from author discussion some time ago.
Which is a shame as I like the idea that CL always get a claim of 0 against nellies and wagons :(
I agree with Nik that what applies to foot with long pointy stick must also apply to elephants and wagons because they all occupy the same place in the grammatical structure of the current wording.
Nik and RJC seem to agree that the +2 will apply in addition to the flank+4 based on current wording. I assume this will be the ruling at Derventio (could be quite a few elephants and charging lancers around) and other tournaments until the next rules update or official clarification.
What they would like the rule to be and how to word it to mean that is a separate issue.
For the new QRS
perhaps the simplest solution is to put the sentence "Only BWg and elephant cancellations apply to flank or rear attacks" in the area below (with *; ** and S), rather than putting it in the reclamation line.
otherwise, you'll have to add it to every line where there are cancellations.
for example:
Foot Devastating Charger(S) = 0 vs. EL, or vs. CL in good going
this will also make it clear that there are no other cancellations on the flank than for Elephant and BWg
Thanks for all the contributions. Please remember that cancellation claims only apply to the front (this is in the PDF edition QRS anyway). Also remember that space on the QRS is always tight.
Charge Combat Preferred Claims
Troop Type Claim
Foot and BWg All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
LSp* If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch; +1 vs others.
Pk* As LSp factors ... then +1 if in 4 ranks (3 ranks in Magna)
SSp +1 vs any.
DC (S) If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs any foot; 0 vs El, or vs CL in good going; +1 vs others.
2HCC +1 vs any foot.
PA +1 vs any.
IW +2 vs any.
Mounted and chariots All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
CL* (S) 0 vs BWg, El; +2 vs others cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp, foot PA or Pk".
LSp +1 vs any cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp or Pk.
MP* (S) +1 vs any mounted cancelled by CL or LSp.
SSp +1 vs any cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp, foot PA or Pk.
DC (S) If in 2 ranks themselves: 0 vs BWg, El; +1 vs others cancelled by standing to receive** foot LSp or Pk.
El (S) +3 vs close foot that are tribal or formed; +2 vs other foot; +4 vs Cv, Cm or El; +5 vs Ch or BWg.
* not if affected or badly affected or vs barricades; ** standing to receive = not charged, countercharged or intercepted; (S) = possible shatter.
Melee combat preferred claims
Foot and BWg All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
LSp* If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs Cv, Cm, Ch; +1 vs others.
Pk* As LSp factors ... then +1 if in 3 ranks.
PA +1 vs Cv, Cm, Ch or El; +1 vs others if 2 ranks deep, BWg with PA 1 rank deep.
2HCC +2 vs Cv, Cm or Ch; +1 vs others.
ME +1 vs any, cancelled by El or Exp.
Mounted and chariots All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
LSp +1 vs any.
MPA +1 vs any.
ME 0 vs El; +1 vs others cancelled by 2+ deep LSp, Pk or shieldwall, all in good going.
El +2 vs close foot that are tribal or formed; +1 vs other foot +3 vs Cv, Cm or El; +4 vs Ch or BWg.
* not if affected or badly affected or vs barricades; Shoves from characteristic or 2+ deep close foot in good going vs loose/skirmish foot.
-----------------------------------------------------
Now you can tell me where I have gone wrong!
I'll admit the other thing that has always confused me is why El get +4 (charge) or +3 (melee) vs El. The only affect is if you hit the elephants in the flank or rear with elephants and in that case it is like double counting.... However I don't propose that as a rule change - it is just an observation.
Richard
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims
I cannot help but feel that, as interesting as all this may be, the discussion is descending into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin territory. If the front of a file charges into the side (flank) of any other unit, the hit unit self-evidently is NOT standing to receive a charge. Therefore, the unit charging into contact gets all its normal claims plus and bonus for flank or rear, and the unit that was hit in the flank gets nothing. I just don't see any confusion here.
My apologies if I have misunderstood the discussion, but I just don't see an issue.
Hello Wizard,
QRS states that "standing to receive = not charged, countercharged or intercepted". So as written, it does not forbid a flank-charged unit of claiming cancellation.
Now I obviously agree with you that there should be no cancellation if flank-charged, but I think that the rules should be as explicit as possible because of (i) English proficiency of non-native readers, (ii) cultural differences as to what is not said ("everything not allowed is forbidden" vs "everything not forbidden is allowed") and (iii) the tendency of some players to use any leeway to interpret rules as it benefits them.
So even if it is not the most glamorous discussion (clearly not ;D), I think it must not be overlooked.
Best,
Antoine
Quote from: Jilu on October 26, 2023, 10:19:17 PM
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims
How about "To make a claim or to cancel a claim a file must be fighting to it's front." Is that clearer?
Quote from: Wizard of Oz on October 26, 2023, 11:52:08 PM
I cannot help but feel that, as interesting as all this may be, the discussion is descending into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin territory. If the front of a file charges into the side (flank) of any other unit, the hit unit self-evidently is NOT standing to receive a charge. Therefore, the unit charging into contact gets all its normal claims plus and bonus for flank or rear, and the unit that was hit in the flank gets nothing. I just don't see any confusion here.
My apologies if I have misunderstood the discussion, but I just don't see an issue.
I understand your feeling. It is a rare situation. However there is some confusion for some people. What I am trying to achieve is to make the rule as clear as possible without turning the rules into a tome the size of War and Peace.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 27, 2023, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: Jilu on October 26, 2023, 10:19:17 PM
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims
How about "To make a claim or to cancel a claim a file must be fighting to it's front." Is that clearer?
Yes, I think
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 27, 2023, 08:12:11 AM
I understand your feeling. It is a rare situation. However there is some confusion for some people. What I am trying to achieve is to make the rule as clear as possible without turning the rules into a tome the size of War and Peace.
Richard
Indeed, the aim is not to have thousands of pages, but to have a clear rule, with simple sentences, without interpretations.
The new sentence is shorter and simpler than the old one.
2 successful goals, well done Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 27, 2023, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: Jilu on October 26, 2023, 10:19:17 PM
All below claims and cancellation effects can only be made when fighting to a files front
this could be read as if it does not count when fighting in the flank, so charging lancers hitting a file in the flank do not count their lance claims
How about "To make a claim or to cancel a claim a file must be fighting to it's front." Is that clearer?
"to claim or cancel a claim the file must fight to its front"
Sounds good to me.
Antoine
Should there be a new QRS for 2024, I would ask it to be downloadable in English from the forum/internet site as it's a bit difficult to order them from continental Europe .
For now we are always asked to order from PSC but that's way too costly
Something like Brexit did not help !
Quote from: badhabum on October 28, 2023, 10:50:40 AM
Should there be a new QRS for 2024, I would ask it to be downloadable in English from the forum/internet site as it's a bit difficult to order them from continental Europe .
For now we are always asked to order from PSC but that's way too costly
Something like Brexit did not help !
I will look to bring some to IWC. I will also see if we can get revised QRS uploaded to the CCC games website (where the current ones are available to download for people who have bought the rules).
Richard
Hello Richard,
If and when the new QRS for 2024 becomes available, will that only be for those who have purchased the pdf version or also for those who had previously purchased the rules in book form?
Regards,
Quote from: Wizard of Oz on October 28, 2023, 10:01:59 PM
Hello Richard,
If and when the new QRS for 2024 becomes available, will that only be for those who have purchased the pdf version or also for those who had previously purchased the rules in book form?
Regards,
If and when, it will be available to anyone who has previously bought the Compendium edition or PDF edition.