Hello, i wonder why they are drilled.
These guys are not professionals, not like swiss, not like burgondians or landsknecht. These are city militias, they have some training but not extensive.
i think that as these were mainly anti-horse/knight troops they should be formed or tribal.
perhaps even for Brugge and Gent formed/shove, for other smaller cities tribal.
they certainly did not manoeuver like drilled.
Jilu.
Fair comment. Will look at this.
Richard
In 1302, their time of glory, the low countries army was mostly on the defence , protected by stakes and terrain . Still they had a hard time defeating the french who charged frontally .
Il all subsequent battles, the militia lost.
The Flemish troops were not that bad, they did resist in fierce battles, even if they mostly lost against the Army of the French King. But then look at the size of population and thus aviable men to fight and the difference in the number of knights during battles
it depends on the period, might need to nuance things a bit and the armylists dates are different than what i think should be but that depends on a point of view.
Early Low Countries, in the wars of Flanders 1297 untill 1304 :
Battles of Furnes : they lost badly
Battle of Courtrais: yes use of a semi-dried river arm for protection, the Goedendag seem to have worked well to
stop the French charges and a victory
Battle of Arques : Little in known, the French did have to retreat as they did not manage to break the Flemish line
again maybe use of natural obstacles, but nothing is sure
Battle of Mons-en-Pévèle : Flemish camp is sacked early in the battle, yet the Flemish manage to hold, the troops of
Bruges almost got to the King but had to retreat and leave the victory to the french
Battle of Nevele : the Flemish managed to hold the line quite well but in the end lacking numbers were defeated
Battle of Roosebeke : the Flemish of Ghent hold their line, advance, fought quite well, were surrounded and defeated
Later Low Countries : 1384-1482 the Burgundians wars the Flemish were not that bad, the Burgundians often requested their presence certainly if they expected the opponant to have Horse
All in all, it is quite difficult to know the value if the Flemish foot, little is known as it is the gentry who had history written, we know a lot about what the knights did or did not do, but little of what the militias did.
All in all i would rate them as such :
Early period : Tribal /average /Long Spear or Pike / shove optional for the bigger cities like Gent-Brugge-Ieper-Namur- there is the classification of the Goedendag that might cause a problem, it is an uncommon weapon.
Later period : Formed /average /pike /shove optional - better trained as they battle more .
Making them poor or combat-shy would not reflect their eagerness to fight for their freedom and their stuborness.
The main problem for the Flemish armies was they had to remain on the defensive. They were facing possibly the best equipped army in Europe in the first half of the 14th century. They had to choose defensive positions where they couldn't be outflanked. In a head-on fight the pikemen could hold their own against French knights.
Not sure it tells us much about their level of drill. I think they were better than Tribal, they had a history of providing mercenaries for other armies. There motivation was generally quite high, so Average is right.
Richard
I agree the problem seems to have been "mobility" not motivation. So formed perhaps and drilled for the Flemish units used in other armies as it would seem right for "mercenaries" that were not militia.
Now Polearm, LS or pike ...1302 they seem to have used stakes and the goedendag, a weapon that needed no real training. Later I do not know.
At Courtrai, the Flemish and "Walloon" knights ( from Liège, brabant and namur ) did fight dismounted as they were outnumbered . It seems they were dispersed along the battleline
I don't understand why you think the goedendag needed no real training. It seems to me that it was actually quite a subtle weapon, a hybrid of club and spear. On the Courtrai chest men armed with the goedendag are shown between the spearmen. The weapon seems to have been designed to unhorse a French knight, something that in my opinion would have needed quite a lot of training (I suspect if you didn't get it right you wouldn't get a second opportunity!).
Richard
i agree with both of you, so maybe these armies should be tweaked to reflect a more real feeling of what they did.
Perhaps formed but in 12 bases? these would make them less manoeuvrable certainly in the core army, not as mercenaries or in Burgundian armies.
The more i think of it the pikes reflect best how they fought with the Goedendag, deadly for mounted knights.
The knights were indeed often dismounted, in most battles it seems they did, not all, bot most, so maybe allow units of dismounted knights or perhaps mixed units of knights and pike ?
Going for more extreme ideas : 8 bases of pike flanked by 2 bases of knights ? 1 per flank or two on one side for the comunal troops, if as mercenaries in other armies, the normal pike formation.
Thing is, Feudal knights dismounting, imho they should stay Superior as they were mostly used dismounted and did not suffer from bad quality just being outnumbered.
As for stakes these were not restricted to Archers, i think some other units in this army should have them too, perhaps even knights.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on July 06, 2023, 11:41:53 AM
I don't understand why you think the goedendag needed no real training. It seems to me that it was actually quite a subtle weapon, a hybrid of club and spear. On the Courtrai chest men armed with the goedendag are shown between the spearmen. The weapon seems to have been designed to unhorse a French knight, something that in my opinion would have needed quite a lot of training (I suspect if you didn't get it right you wouldn't get a second opportunity!).
Richard
Then : first rank pike or longspear with spearprotection ?
In Dutch/Flemish language historiography the goedendag is often presented as the poor man's weapon, as being simple to operate. This might just be the nobility trying to deal with the fact that this was a weapon they had no real answer to, and therefore talking it down as a 'stupid' weapon, but then again, it is constructed in such a way that if you just move it in the general direction of your opponent, you will most likely do some damage with it, either by stabbing of clubbing them. It is basically a very deadly stick.
As for the status of the lowlands pikemen: how about combat shy? At the Guldensporenslag (battle of the golden spurs), they had to be told to stand and not run off, which by the way any sane man would have done seeing those French knight thundering towards him. Their 'pikes' (pointy sticks really) where definitely more like those of the Scots at first: lift them and see the cavalry die on them to your amazement. Not an offensive weapon, at least not at first. Can't argue for later use though...
Yet another Lowlander getting involved.
Huub
It's a militia close fighting weapon that needed no special skill, no long training. It's not a specialist weapon but believe what you whish
It was useful, strong and deadly as a heavy club with a pointed stick
A weapon butchers, farmers, artisans could use easily as in a brawl which at one point a melee becomes ...
https://www.liebaart.org/goedendag.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty75vg3FkGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk7lwgGTcyU
Quote from: lionheartrjc on July 06, 2023, 11:41:53 AM
I don't understand why you think the goedendag needed no real training. It seems to me that it was actually quite a subtle weapon, a hybrid of club and spear.
I suspect like some (many?) other weapons it could be both used effectively in a fairly simple way, but if you worked at it there are many other things you could do with it as well.
I disagree about the combatshy, they had a hard time at the battle of Courtrai, but they did stand their ground.
And being told not to run off, well that is in a lot of armies, that is what officers are for.
It was a vulunteers in a was revolutunary army, of course scared of the French knights. We all would be with just a pointy stick facing the French chivalry charging impetously.
After the Gludensporenslag they knew they could beat the french.
Yet as often being outnumbered... not easy to win in head on battles.
But we know the Flemish militia supported by knights ( from flanders, Namur, Liège .;) all fought behind stakes . Ok stakes are a bit defensive but they used it just as English longbowmen did so why don't they have stakes ?