Out of curiosity
NKE army mays have 24 chariots + 6 pharaoh's guard
Hittite may have "only" 16 chariots + 6 Golden Chariots fighters
I was under impression that at Kadesh the Hittites had more chariots that the NKE so why the difference in numbers ? why less chariots for the hittite empire ?
This without counting allies
Don't disagree that the NKE probably allows too many chariots.
Richard
Tend to agree.
Changing the Chariots line maximum to 16 in the NKE is probably appropriate.
May I suggest 18 for the pleasure of having 3 X 6 if I whish
18 for the hittites and the NKE :)
16 makes life more interesting.
Perhaps but can you tell me how I can play a Kadesh like army with an almost fully chariotry army with 16 chariots and even with allies as they need some mandatory infantry in each contingents ?
As the list stands, you cannot play Kadesh the most famous battle of the time :)
Downgrading the NKE to 16 would have the same result
What's the logic ?
The army lists are not a tool for creating refight armies - pretty sure we mentioned this to a degree on the last podcast. The lists are a tool for creating points based pick-up/competition games. They can inform a refight, of course, but no more than that really.
If you want to fight Qadesh, just draw up the armies based in the info we have for that specific battle at a representation scale (note the lists do not have one) which suits you.
Ok but back to the question :
Why would 18 chariots be unbearable to you ?
What is the logic ?
Why reducing the numbers of NKE chariots from 24 to 16 if you compare to the acheans who have 30 SUP chariots and it is the same period, same army book? the entire NKE kingdom had much more ressources than the achean mythical expedition. The same logic goes for the hittite empire who had much more ressources than the achean piracy expedition vs Troy but if we play they have near twice the ressources of the hittite empire .
Sorry I am a bit lost . So please give us some very logical and data based reason for this
Quote from: badhabum on May 30, 2023, 08:02:23 PM
Ok but back to the question :
Why would 18 chariots be unbearable to you ?
What is the logic ?
To repeat what I said previously - "16 makes life more interesting."
I.e. presents more interesting decisions when drawing up a list so gets my vote.
Quote
Why reducing the numbers of NKE chariots from 24 to 16 if you compare to the acheans who have 30 SUP chariots and it is the same period, same army book? the entire NKE kingdom had much more ressources than the achean mythical expedition. The same logic goes for the hittite empire who had much more ressources than the achean piracy expedition vs Troy but if we play they have near twice the ressources of the hittite empire .
Sorry I am a bit lost . So please give us some very logical and data based reason for this
Having been here before on numbers across lists, and knowing where it goes, I'm only going to comment on this once.
Comparison across different lists is not useful. There is no absolute figure ratio so such comparisons are pretty meaningless. We are creating artificially equal "fighting strength" armies when playing equal points games which take no account of relative state sizes, available resources, etc. in any absolute manner. Numbers/ratios really only have meaning within the individual list.
To take your NKE/Achaian example if you wanted to draw up armies based on resources of these two you would be looking at quite unequal points values facing off against each other - let us say, pulling numbers out of the air, 10k NKE vs. 4k Achaian. Sorts the resources issue out, but useless for an equal points style game (which as previously mentioned is really the rationale for the lists).
No reason why the lists shouldn't allow you to recreate a Kadesh style army.
I would have thought it better to allow more choice. If a change has to be made I would add to Hittite chariot numbers, not lower Egyptian ones.
Martin
Quote from: martymagnificent on May 30, 2023, 10:43:17 PM
No reason why the lists shouldn't allow you to recreate a Kadesh style army.
To be honest you probably can; there are Qadesh style armies in the sample armies - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/meg/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/MeG-Sample-Armies-2023-02.pdf
QuoteTo repeat what I said previously - "16 makes life more interesting."
I.e. presents more interesting decisions when drawing up a list so gets my vote.
I'll bow to that the day you reduce the number of SUP romans and increase the number of SUP pikes :)
It would indeed make for more interesting armies :D
But do not worry I have my answer and will not comment any more on it
And thank you for having taken the time for answering
Quote from: badhabum on May 31, 2023, 03:33:35 PM
QuoteTo repeat what I said previously - "16 makes life more interesting."
I.e. presents more interesting decisions when drawing up a list so gets my vote.
I'll bow to that the day you reduce the number of SUP romans and increase the number of SUP pikes :)
It would indeed make for more interesting armies :D
But do not worry I have my answer and will not comment any more on it
And thank you for having taken the time for answering
No problem :D
These things are in the end subjective; that's my take on it but I can see why others would say 18, it has obvious attractions. List writing is an art, not a science as I always say; and of course, in the end, Richard has the final say - one man, one vote ;D 8)
So why change it at all ?
That's 1450 odd points as in 2 x 4 chariots.
Only bought the army last year 🤷♂️ waste of bloody time and money 🤷♂️ Looks like another army for eBay as I'm certainly not buying more stuff which will then be nerfed the following year 😡
Can keep a few bits to play ADLG as obviously won't be bothering with MEG biblical 😖
Bit pissed off as only bought it to compete in MEG biblical competitions.
In the battles of the period, for which we have numbers, it seems that chariots comprised only 10-15% of the total. Maybe, rather than changing numbers of chariots, how about fixing chariot TUGs at 4 bases and for all lists stating that chariot TuG's may not exceed infantry TuGs ........
Why not just increase number of Hittite chariots as some of us have spent a fortune. Not as is any new historical evidence has appeared in last 24 months 🤷♂️
Quote from: Robin on June 21, 2023, 12:45:33 PM
Why not just increase number of Hittite chariots as some of us have spent a fortune. Not as is any new historical evidence has appeared in last 24 months 🤷♂️
seconded, if the measure is to balance Hittite and NKE numbers then increase rather than decrease.
Technically you can get the chariot from the submitted Syrian cities under a hittite subgeneral thus boosting the number of available chariots.
...
The options are already on the table
Quote from: tarnowski1 on June 21, 2023, 12:57:57 PM
Quote from: Robin on June 21, 2023, 12:45:33 PM
Why not just increase number of Hittite chariots as some of us have spent a fortune. Not as is any new historical evidence has appeared in last 24 months 🤷♂️
seconded, if the measure is to balance Hittite and NKE numbers then increase rather than decrease.
Any change will not be to balance Hittite and NKE numbers - it will be based upon history.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on June 22, 2023, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: tarnowski1 on June 21, 2023, 12:57:57 PM
Quote from: Robin on June 21, 2023, 12:45:33 PM
Why not just increase number of Hittite chariots as some of us have spent a fortune. Not as is any new historical evidence has appeared in last 24 months 🤷♂️
seconded, if the measure is to balance Hittite and NKE numbers then increase rather than decrease.
Any change will not be to balance Hittite and NKE numbers - it will be based upon history.
Richard
You might find my answer agressive but honestly it will be following YOUR view and understanding of history, not mine . Also look at all the lists in the SAME book, same period and compare them as your philosophy always is officially that lists should be better used in their own time for balance and historical feeling ! But If I compare all the armies of the very same book I do not get that feeling but so it is. I do not feel history as you do . Also you loose sight of the "gaming" pleasure, the feeling of having a nice chariotry army ( in this case )
Really, once I hear, it's based on history, it's based on the feeling, ..never it's based on what the players who buy and play the rules would like to play ..for a change be nice ;D
No hard feelings do not worry and I will continue playing MEG but I am now free to modify lists for my own competitions :) starting with BRULIB 2023
Quote from: badhabum on June 22, 2023, 04:26:56 PM
You might find my answer agressive but honestly it will be following YOUR view and understanding of history, not mine .
I am not that arrogant. I actually listen to and take into account a lot of different opinions as I am sure many people will attest to.
You are welcome to your view of history (there is very little in ancient history that is universally agreed to). What you want to play isn't necessarily what a lot of other people want to play.
Richard
Quote from: badhabum on June 22, 2023, 04:26:56 PM
but I am now free to modify lists for my own competitions
You always have been. Any organiser always has been.
Quote from: badhabum on June 22, 2023, 04:26:56 PM
You might find my answer agressive but honestly it will be following YOUR view and understanding of history, not mine . Also look at all the lists in the SAME book, same period and compare them as your philosophy always is officially that lists should be better used in their own time for balance and historical feeling ! But If I compare all the armies of the very same book I do not get that feeling but so it is. I do not feel history as you do . Also you loose sight of the "gaming" pleasure, the feeling of having a nice chariotry army ( in this case )
Really, once I hear, it's based on history, it's based on the feeling, ..never it's based on what the players who buy and play the rules would like to play ..for a change be nice ;D
No hard feelings do not worry and I will continue playing MEG but I am now free to modify lists for my own competitions :) starting with BRULIB 2023
You can modify the lists, the rules and have your own private version if you want.
For me, I'm sticking with the official version and won't be going to BRULIB 2023 and its "badhabum" version.
Enjoy the game and good luck.