Fellow wargamers,
I am perplexed by some items in the Imperial Roman list. There is no option in the maximus list for Imperial Romans for giving legionaries or auxilia upgraded to guard melee expert. All of the average legionaries and auxilia get melee expert. Why don't the guard? Something similar happens to the regraded legionaries and auxilia. Up to 16 Average troops can be upgraded to superior or exceptional but they lose their melee expert option. I believe that earlier lists gave the guard melee expert but it has now been removed. Why is this?
Late Republican Xth legion get melee expert, thanks to Julius Caesar's self-serving commentaries, but Early Imperial Praetorians don't. Perhaps the view is that the Praetorians were "asphalt soldiers" but they did campaign with emperors; did not all spend their days looking for a Claudius behind the curtains to make emperor. In any event, they were disbanded by Constantine. The guard units, to which the list refers, are presumably the Scholae Palatinae bodyguards which accompanied the mobile courts of Constantine, his successor and rebel Augusti and Caesares. These troops fought in both foreign and civil wars. I am unaware of evidence that they lacked the fighting skills of average legionaries and auxiliary soldiers.
Alcibiades
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 05, 2023, 06:48:17 AM
Fellow wargamers,
I am perplexed by some items in the Imperial Roman list. There is no option in the maximus list for Imperial Romans for giving legionaries or auxilia upgraded to guard melee expert. All of the average legionaries and auxilia get melee expert. Why don't the guard? Something similar happens to the regraded legionaries and auxilia. Up to 16 Average troops can be upgraded to superior or exceptional but they lose their melee expert option. I believe that earlier lists gave the guard melee expert but it has now been removed. Why is this?
Small point, but in the Imperial Roman list 24 of the legionaries/auxilia can be upgraded to Superior and a further 8 to guard in the Maximus list; 16 combined is the Magna list :)
The ME has been removed as it was felt that whilst the "guard" could have been better than those classified as Superior it wasn't enough to justify the ME as well as the Exceptional rating. Even without the ME being Exceptional gives useful benefits over the Superior versions (for a very modest 5pt cost increase IIRC).
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Late Republican Xth legion get melee expert, thanks to Julius Caesar's self-serving commentaries, but Early Imperial Praetorians don't. Perhaps the view is that the Praetorians were "asphalt soldiers" but they did campaign with emperors; did not all spend their days looking for a Claudius behind the curtains to make emperor. In any event, they were disbanded by Constantine. The guard units, to which the list refers, are presumably the Scholae Palatinae bodyguards which accompanied the mobile courts of Constantine, his successor and rebel Augusti and Caesares. These troops fought in both foreign and civil wars. I am unaware of evidence that they lacked the fighting skills of average legionaries and auxiliary soldiers.
Alcibiades
Not having the ME characteristic does not mean that they had lesser fighting skills than Average troops - a quick look at the claims will show that is false. ME is given to troops who are seen as fighting better in melee than those of the same Quality grade, it is not an absolute given for, say, proficiency with a sword, the whole package of classification needs to be considered.
BTW, in the Imperial list the Exceptionals are not going to be the Scholae as they were cavalry units :D Also, FWIW, in the EIR they need not just be the Praetorians either, II Parthica would probably qualify as well. Basically, "guard" is being used as a list shorthand for "the best unit in the army".
Thank you for your reply. Ignoring the small points and such, my concern is not the rationalisations, it is the evidence on which you based them. Why do you believe that the "best unit in army" fails to demonstrate the "whole package" while average troops did? How do you explain the difference from the Early Imperial list? Surely this is not a reflection of Gibbon's dated prejudice against the late empire...
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 05, 2023, 11:48:34 PM
Why do you believe that the "best unit in army" fails to demonstrate the "whole package" while average troops did?
I didn't say that. The "guard" are better troops in MeG than either the Superior types or the Average types - their "whole package" is better.
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How do you explain the difference from the Early Imperial list? Surely this is not a reflection of Gibbon's dated prejudice against the late empire...
Which difference are you referring to? In terms of the guard (which is what you have been questioning) the EIR and IR lists have exactly the same numbers and classification.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on April 06, 2023, 06:41:46 AM
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 05, 2023, 11:48:34 PM
Why do you believe that the "best unit in army" fails to demonstrate the "whole package" while average troops did?
I didn't say that. The "guard" are better troops in MeG than either the Superior types or the Average types - their "whole package" is better.
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How do you explain the difference from the Early Imperial list? Surely this is not a reflection of Gibbon's dated prejudice against the late empire...
Which difference are you referring to? In terms of the guard (which is what you have been questioning) the EIR and IR lists have exactly the same numbers and classification.
Apologies if I misunderstood you and yes, I had missed the change for Praetorians in the EIR list. What is the "whole package" to which you refer? Is it only the KAB test and the charge combat factors? Why don't Praetorians have melee expert as an option? What is the evidence that they lacked that compared to average or superior legionaries?
Basically, on reflection, we do not see evidence that they performed so much better as to justify it.
My feeling is that all roman armies from MRR to IR are quite overpowered .
Kind of Hollywood armies with far too many superiors.
Yes the romans did win campaigns but that was thanks to logistics, planning and so on ! they lost numerous battles .