So our dear Achillles is an ally SUB and being legendary it would make history if he got unreliable :D
Now he only has to take command of his dear myrmidons and MAY have some other TUGS, also max 4 tugs in total. If he takes more units under his command MUST he follow the way of other internal allied generals and take TUGS from the main list so here a TUG of chariotry and a big tUG of spearmen ?
the rules says :
QuoteThe rules do not normally provide for a legendary general other than a C-in-C. Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands Myrmidons.
Fixed.
Sorry where ?
Methinks your edit has changed the question - it happens :P
It is what it says - if A commands the Myrmidons he is not required to command troops that would normally be compulsory.
If A does not take Myrmidons he would be constrained by the usual rules for allied contingents.
Ok he does not have to take the sub units but still he is an ally
My meaning is : I buy A and his myrmidons .
Now I want to give him some TUGS to make his command bigger . He may choose freely in the list but still it must be allowed to him under his command in the list before the games and so it is set for the tournament. He may not go shopping different UGs for each game as if a regular instinctive sub general.
It must be defined once and for all for the whole tournament
I try to be clear
Yes, the whole issue seems to be: can he be anything other than an internal ally who is bound to always take the same allied troops, or can he be a normal sub, and hence be free to switch tugs between games?
He is listed as a internal ally general - how can he be a sub-general?
If you take the internal ally as Patroclus you cannot have Achilles as the ally has to be one or the other.
As an ally the contingent is fixed.
Is this correct :
So Achean Trojan war list 1215: Achiles is a legendary ALLY sub general ( 700 points if you ask ) . If he takes the Myrmidons and want to have more TUGs under his command he does not have to follow the usual procedure and buy TUGS following the minima so he does not have to take 4 chariots and 9 spearmen in addition to the ones that Agamemnon must take. BUT he is still an ally. So if you want to give him more TUGs to command you must buy TUGS/SUGS above the minima already bought for Agamemnon and put them under his separate ALLY command and that is fixed for the whole tournament. The difference with usual allies is that you have a wide choice to pick from if the myridons are taken as you do not have to take spearmen or chariots .
Achilles is a legendary ally general. If he takes the Myrmidions then he commands 1-3 other TuGs from the list (other than Pylians) and does not have to take chariots or spearmen.
If he doesn't take the Myrmidions then he will have to take at least 4 chariots and 9 spearmen.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 08, 2023, 12:13:50 PM
Achilles is a legendary ally general. If he takes the Myrmidions then he commands 1-3 other TuGs from the list (other than Pylians) and does not have to take chariots or spearmen.
If he doesn't take the Myrmidions then he will have to take at least 4 chariots and 9 spearmen.
Richard
1-3 others, or 0-3 others?
Perhaps the above would be an improvement on the wording in the list book.
An internal allied contingent has the following requirement (amongst others) "Each internal ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs."
The list note of "Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands Myrmidons." refers to troops that would normally be compulsory and not to the contingent size.
Wording is fine IMO unless one is approaching it to wilfully misread it and try to avoid the requirements.
Of course, if I am wrong about the contingent requirements then I'll agree the wording needs changing ;D
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 09, 2023, 06:58:50 PM
An internal allied contingent has the following requirement (amongst others) "Each internal ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs."
The list note of "Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands Myrmidons." refers to troops that would normally be compulsory and not to the contingent size.
Wording is fine IMO unless one is approaching it to wilfully misread it and try to avoid the requirements.
Of course, if I am wrong about the contingent requirements then I'll agree the wording needs changing ;D
So if I read you correctly ACHILLES must still have 2 UGS under his command so at minima the myrmidons + 1 other UG
Can you please confirm ( we have 2 players testing their armies on sunday so yes we would like the answer )
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 09, 2023, 06:58:50 PM
An internal allied contingent has the following requirement (amongst others) "Each internal ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs."
The list note of "Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands Myrmidons." refers to troops that would normally be compulsory and not to the contingent size.
Wording is fine IMO unless one is approaching it to wilfully misread it and try to avoid the requirements.
Of course, if I am wrong about the contingent requirements then I'll agree the wording needs changing ;D
Well, if it's compulsory to have a 2nd UG, then they are compulsory troops aren't they?
Either way, the wording in the book generated this list query, while the wording in RJC's post solved the query. Also I suggest that wording that cannot be wilfully misread to try to avoid requirements would be an improvement over wording that can.
Quote from: LawrenceG on February 09, 2023, 11:00:53 PM
Well, if it's compulsory to have a 2nd UG, then they are compulsory troops aren't they?
I think you need to think that through again :P
Richard's wording is fine and as he is kinder than me towards those wilfully misreading things he may well use it in an update :D
Dear Nik and RJC
Outside of your isolated UK there are players who are not native English speakers and some with very very basic English.
Traduttore traditore
If we disagree between ourselves in Europe on how to interpret correctly what you have written it's because when translating there are some disagreements and because when you write something ( the rules ) you have the idea and know what you mean but the guy who reads you understand something slightly different and add now the translation problem .
Players want your input, a polite input and may ask for more details because sometimes for some people it is a bit difficult to grasp it correctly and sometimes do not want to understand if it's not in their favour
So please be patient or come and visit France, Belgium and Greece to have contact and explain all those things. It's been years now and I understand BREXIT did not help but if you cannot come, please be polite and patient as we have to explain it all to some people .
Back to the list :
QuoteThe rules do not normally provide for a legendary general other than a C-in-C. Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands
Myrmidons.
So if one chooses Patrocles, even if he commands the Myrmidons you must give him his due : 4 chariots and 9 spearmen . Correct ?
Correct.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 09, 2023, 06:58:50 PM
An internal allied contingent has the following requirement (amongst others) "Each internal ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs."
The list note of "Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands Myrmidons." refers to troops that would normally be compulsory and not to the contingent size.
Wording is fine IMO unless one is approaching it to wilfully misread it and try to avoid the requirements.
Of course, if I am wrong about the contingent requirements then I'll agree the wording needs changing ;D
I feel I must point out that, if you are considering the wording from a technical writing of requirements or standards point of view (which is how MeG as a set of "rules" is written): then "each ally MUST have..." is a compulsory requirement and it is about UGs who are clearly troops. Thus "does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops" means Achilles with Myrmidons and 0-3 other UGs is clearly what is meant.
I will also point out that my first ever game of MeG against an opponent was against Simon (rules author) and he kindly put together a list for me - Acheaean Greek (as I have a 28mm DBM army) - and it had Achillles in command of just the Myrmidons. Now it is, of course, possible that Simon was not concerned with minor list details and more concerned with helping a new player understand the game... (and rules authors have been known to mis-remember their rules as they have so many versions in their heads).
I have since worked out my own list...and obviously I have assumed Achilles with Myrmidons must have 0-3 other UGs.
Quote from: Gavin on April 23, 2023, 12:11:52 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 09, 2023, 06:58:50 PM
An internal allied contingent has the following requirement (amongst others) "Each internal ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs."
The list note of "Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands Myrmidons." refers to troops that would normally be compulsory and not to the contingent size.
Wording is fine IMO unless one is approaching it to wilfully misread it and try to avoid the requirements.
Of course, if I am wrong about the contingent requirements then I'll agree the wording needs changing ;D
I feel I must point out that, if you are considering the wording from a technical writing of requirements or standards point of view (which is how MeG as a set of "rules" is written): then "each ally MUST have..." is a compulsory requirement and it is about UGs who are clearly troops. Thus "does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops" means Achilles with Myrmidons and 0-3 other UGs is clearly what is meant.
I will also point out that my first ever game of MeG against an opponent was against Simon (rules author) and he kindly put together a list for me - Acheaean Greek (as I have a 28mm DBM army) - and it had Achillles in command of just the Myrmidons. Now it is, of course, possible that Simon was not concerned with minor list details and more concerned with helping a new player understand the game... (and rules authors have been known to mis-remember their rules as they have so many versions in their heads).
I have since worked out my own list...and obviously I have assumed Achilles with Myrmidons must have 0-3 other UGs.
Hy I fear you mix two requirements or requirement 1 and requirement 2. Achilles has to submit to 1 and 3, but skip 2 . I hope I am being clear ( it's at the beginning of each army list book ):
Where allies are allowed, they must conform to the following rules:
1. An ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs.2. They must take enough UGs to get them to at least 50% of the minimums in the list being used.
3. They can thereafter take any troops up to the maximum to create the rest of the allied contingent.
Quote from: badhabum on April 23, 2023, 07:44:40 PM
Quote from: Gavin on April 23, 2023, 12:11:52 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 09, 2023, 06:58:50 PM
An internal allied contingent has the following requirement (amongst others) "Each internal ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs."
The list note of "Achilles does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops in his contingent if he commands Myrmidons." refers to troops that would normally be compulsory and not to the contingent size.
Wording is fine IMO unless one is approaching it to wilfully misread it and try to avoid the requirements.
Of course, if I am wrong about the contingent requirements then I'll agree the wording needs changing ;D
I feel I must point out that, if you are considering the wording from a technical writing of requirements or standards point of view (which is how MeG as a set of "rules" is written): then "each ally MUST have..." is a compulsory requirement and it is about UGs who are clearly troops. Thus "does not have to include otherwise compulsory troops" means Achilles with Myrmidons and 0-3 other UGs is clearly what is meant.
I will also point out that my first ever game of MeG against an opponent was against Simon (rules author) and he kindly put together a list for me - Acheaean Greek (as I have a 28mm DBM army) - and it had Achillles in command of just the Myrmidons. Now it is, of course, possible that Simon was not concerned with minor list details and more concerned with helping a new player understand the game... (and rules authors have been known to mis-remember their rules as they have so many versions in their heads).
I have since worked out my own list...and obviously I have assumed Achilles with Myrmidons must have 0-3 other UGs.
Hy I fear you mix two requirements or requirement 1 and requirement 2. Achilles has to submit to 1 and 3, but skip 2 . I hope I am being clear ( it's at the beginning of each army list book ):
Where allies are allowed, they must conform to the following rules:
1. An ally must be a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 4 UGs.
2. They must take enough UGs to get them to at least 50% of the minimums in the list being used.
3. They can thereafter take any troops up to the maximum to create the rest of the allied contingent.
Agree there are 3 clear requirements at beginning of each army list book. And a clear statement that Achilles is exempt from commanding compulsory troops if he command Myrmidons.
Thus, if commanding Myrmidons, he is exempt from first part of req 1 (I.e. from minimum) but not from second part (i.e. the maximum). And agree exempt from req 2.
So for once I agree with RJC 8)
The requirements for Achilles are 1 and 3 . Nowhere is it written he does not have to tommand 2 TUGS . It is only written that if he commands the myrmidons he is exempt from compulsory troops . Compulsory troops are the requirement 2 as compulsory troops are "the minimums in the list being used" .
Compulsory is related to the list not the requirement for being a sub allied general. Achilles must have one + up to 4 UGS .