This came up last Saturday, and I'm still scratching my head.
Unit A, 6 stands of cataphracts, declared a charge on Unit 1, 8 stands of crossbow. Unit A was at an angle to the crossbow's front, so that a slight wheel in one direction would bring it charging into only one stand of crossbow. At declaration of the charge, 3 stands of crossbow had cataphracts directly to their front, so all 4 had arc. When the cats were moved to 1BW, where the shooting actually is deemed to happen, only 1 stand of crossbow has a stand of cats to front, so only 2 crossbow can shoot.
What was the right answer? In the game, only 2 Xbows got to shoot. We're we right?
Yup - you can wheel to cut down the number of bases shooting at you when you charge, only those with the path of the charge within 1BW and ahead of them (i.e. in front of the line extending the bases' front) can shoot.
Work out the charge path (which stops when the UG contacts the enemy). Any element within 1BW of the charge path can shoot.
It isn't possible without a diagram to tell wihether you got it right or not.
Note: the shooting is not deemed to take place at 1BW (for calculating the arc of fire) - this will only clould your thinking. It is whether elements are within 1BW of the charge path.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 19, 2019, 06:31:41 PM
Note: the shooting is not deemed to take place at 1BW - this will only clould your thinking.
Per the clarries the range is considered to be 1BW for factors. Can be quite important for shooting at Unprotected SUGs, FArm and ArmHrs.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on March 19, 2019, 07:06:46 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 19, 2019, 06:31:41 PM
Note: the shooting is not deemed to take place at 1BW - this will only clould your thinking.
Per the clarries the range is considered to be 1BW for factors. Can be quite important for shooting at Unprotected SUGs, FArm and ArmHrs.
Indeed - I have modified my response to clarify that for arc purposes the range doesn't matter.
Cool - pretty clear now I think 8)
sorry might be my bad english, but this is now not clear anymore.
when shooting at chargers, you shoot if the announced path comes within 1 MU.
does that mean that if the charge starts from more that 1 MU away, you can choose on what base, within the arc of fire, to shoot ?
so you can concentrate shooting on one specific base with several shooting bases ?
Fair question.
Not clearly covered from what I can see. I think people play it as deciding what base to shoot at at 1 BW - whether that is actually correct may be moot, but it is simple and keeps everything to the same 1 BW distance so you don't have to remember an exception.
Its simply if they pass within 1BW.
Dont complicate it with arcs - already wrapped into the above.
1BW for factors.
last one interesting if there are different targets. Needs a clarry.
Some interesting options it seems to me:
1. Always front rank and those that pass most in front of a shooting file. So if two pass completely you would have choice. Has adantage that if rear ranks pass more through the 1BW zone they get the first.
2. As above but always the first file that passes in front of the shooter - think that is my preferred as simpler to figure out and adjudicate.
3. Choice of those that pass in front - so could target rear ranks if protected and ignore front rank - not keen.
Front rAlso makes sense that the same rule should apply for who you shoot at - each file at whichever file crosses path most.
Thoughts welcome. My preference is 2.
Si
OK, before getting further into this I'd like to check that you are saying that shooting at chargers for all things involved with it will be adjudicated as if at 1BW?
(With, presumablty, the common sense caveat that if starting close you use the actual start position)
Might be simpler to say to shoot at the nearest base in the charge path as soon it enters in the 1 MU. it is simple and clean
i am not sure shooting units wil say .." oh wait the rear rank is unptotected ! let wait and shoot at them"
Better to shoot before they move . Who knows they might even be delayed and never enter the 1 MU . I know it seems strange but it is a game , not reality .
Keep it simple otherwise, next question will be : may we move MU by MU with a special table to know who moves when as some units move 5 MU while others 3 MU and so on ... KISS
Quote from: badhabum on March 20, 2019, 07:31:21 PM
Who knows they might even be delayed and never enter the 1 MU .
The rules recognise this may happen (it actually written in) and that this is part of the way the mechanisms were designed to get the effect desired. The well know effects of shooting when within 1BW are probably why this is done - they are desired to apply to chargers being shot at.
The simplest approach may be to allow only bases that come within 1BW of the charge path to fire, but to treat the shooting priorities as to which file they can shoot at to apply as the figures are when the shooting takes place (i.e. before the chargers have moved). So, if the charge starts more than 1BW away, the shooters can target any file within their arc. If within 1BW, at the file most to their front. A shooting file which is within 1BW of the charge path, but not normally within arc, shoots at the file nearest to it.
Until instructed otherwise, this is how I would umpire it if asked.
Richard
Quote from: nikgaukroger on March 20, 2019, 01:43:25 PM
OK, before getting further into this I'd like to check that you are saying that shooting at chargers for all things involved with it will be adjudicated as if at 1BW?
(With, presumablty, the common sense caveat that if starting close you use the actual start position)
Indeed.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 21, 2019, 07:56:28 AM
The simplest approach may be to allow only bases that come within 1BW of the charge path to fire, but to treat the shooting priorities as to which file they can shoot at to apply as the figures are when the shooting takes place (i.e. before the chargers have moved). So, if the charge starts more than 1BW away, the shooters can target any file within their arc. If within 1BW, at the file most to their front. A shooting file which is within 1BW of the charge path, but not normally within arc, shoots at the file nearest to it.
Until instructed otherwise, this is how I would umpire it if asked.
Richard
I pondered that and the issue will be charges that wheel. Take an extremen 90 towards a target. The above might give them a shot at rear ranks when only the front ones are heading towards them. Consider the ordonnance type knights with FArm from and prot rear or Samurai with poor ashigaru behind.
I think probably if there is any doubt, which mostly there isn't so lets not get too hung up on it, just shoot at whichever base comes within 1BW of the shooting file first according to the path of charge.
RJC? thoughts?
S
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on March 21, 2019, 08:13:35 AM
I pondered that and the issue will be charges that wheel. Take an extremen 90 towards a target. The above might give them a shot at rear ranks when only the front ones are heading towards them. Consider the ordonnance type knights with FArm from and prot rear or Samurai with poor ashigaru behind.
I think probably if there is any doubt, which mostly there isn't so lets not get too hung up on it, just shoot at whichever base comes within 1BW of the shooting file first according to the path of charge.
RJC? thoughts?
S
I agree there is a danger of getting hung up on this. The only time I can see it will matter is if the front rank contains mixed types which is fairly uncommon. I would also always rule that you have to shoot at the front of the file unless you are already lined up to shoot at a rear rank wihin 1BW (which should resolve the 90 degree charge issue).
Richard
so when will we get a final clarry ? to close the case?
Why a clarry . the rules are pretty simple : the shooting is considered being done at 1 MU ...easy, simple ...
Do not open pandora's box .
Otherwise let's talk logic : if a unit charges 4 MU away to a unit that will skirmish but shoot at 1 MU, the charger has moved 3 MU, so the unit that skirmishes will be able to move a full move which is illogical as it took it's time to shoot for best effect at 1 MU ...but as a rule it works fine ...
Changing it will only make matters more difficult .
A game is a game not a reenactment
It is already done at effectively 1BW.
If I have understood the query it is which base does a file shoot at if more than one file comes within 1BW.
Like RJC I would always rule they shot at the front one and am happy with that.
And then if in doubt at the first one of those passing into 1BW of a shooting file.
Good enough?
Si
Works for me.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on March 22, 2019, 07:36:20 AM
It is already done at effectively 1BW.
If I have understood the query it is which base does a file shoot at if more than one file comes within 1BW.
Like RJC I would always rule they shot at the front one and am happy with that.
And then if in doubt at the first one of those passing into 1BW of a shooting file.
Good enough?
Si
yes, might be good to ad to the rules
Added to my official clarries
Shooting at chargers, if target file is in doubt
Always shoot at the front base of any file.
If in doubt shoot t the first file whose path of charge comes within 1BW of shooting file.
There is non choice.