While it is clear to me that shatter&shove involve the files that are parallel, haven't already fought ....and so on the question that I was aked is : how far "ahead" and "back" does the effect occur .
If one of the files that might benefit one of the effects is indeed parallel but the fight occurs 1 BW behind or before the frontline of where the effect occurred does it benefit from it
EE
CCFF
AADDFF
BBDD
So A fights B C is on the same side as A and fights D E is on the same side as A and C and fights F
D file has a shatter
How will it affect B and F who are parallel but not fighting along the same front baseline . Either "back" for B or "ahead" for F ? Up to how many BW does the effect go along a file ?
I hope I am clear
Shatter and Shove are applied to Neighbouring Files (see Characteristic definitions).
Relevant bit of the rules is:
"Neighbouring files are those next to, facing the same way, and parallel to the file creating a shatter, and they get an immediate +2 bonus in any unresolved combat in this phase." (page 147 J 2.3)
Unlike the rules for being a Supporting File (page 146) there is nothing about how far ahead (or indeed behind) of the line of fighting you can be to qualify in this.
Ok and does "next to " include corner to corner contact with the shattering/shoving file ?
Looking at how "next to" is used in the rules it seems to imply touching - I'd allow corner to corner in the absence of anything more specific (unless somebody can spot something).
BTW as far as I can see the bit in Supporting Files that says "Or be in such a position that aligning would have resulted in the above situations." (page 146 I 3.4) is not mentioned in the section on Shoves, Shatters, etc. and so will not apply.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 03, 2023, 08:22:38 PM
Looking at how "next to" is used in the rules it seems to imply touching - I'd allow corner to corner in the absence of anything more specific (unless somebody can spot something).
BTW as far as I can see the bit in Supporting Files that says "Or be in such a position that aligning would have resulted in the above situations." (page 146 I 3.4) is not mentioned in the section on Shoves, Shatters, etc. and so will not apply.
Not sure about the second part of the answer . If the file is next to the shattering or shoving file, it does not need to be in contact with the shattered/shoved file . It's not mandatory or am I missing something ?
Next to does imply that it is touching. You cannot be next to if you have a gap between the two files (it would introduce all sorts of problems)!
Quote from: badhabum on January 04, 2023, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 03, 2023, 08:22:38 PM
Looking at how "next to" is used in the rules it seems to imply touching - I'd allow corner to corner in the absence of anything more specific (unless somebody can spot something).
BTW as far as I can see the bit in Supporting Files that says "Or be in such a position that aligning would have resulted in the above situations." (page 146 I 3.4) is not mentioned in the section on Shoves, Shatters, etc. and so will not apply.
Not sure about the second part of the answer . If the file is next to the shattering or shoving file, it does not need to be in contact with the shattered/shoved file . It's not mandatory or am I missing something ?
Sorry if I am being a bit opaque here.
To qualify as a Supporting File page 147 lays down a number of conditions as to the placing of a file (as I am sure you are well aware) - these include a provision that if aligning would have put you in a qualifying position you can be a supporting file even if that alignment hasn't actually taken place.
I mention it because whilst that provision is not mentioned in the section on when Shatter, etc. apply on page 147 I think that it is often played as if that provision does apply. (Unless I have missed something somewhere) I wonder if it ought to in order to avoid issues/cheese?
Hope that explains what I was on about.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 04, 2023, 01:05:15 PM
Next to does imply that it is touching. You cannot be next to if you have a gap between the two files (it would introduce all sorts of problems)!
I was not clear enough ( a habbit ) . To benefit from the shatter effect you have to be touching ( even by corner it seems ) the shattering file but you do not need to be next ( touching ) the shattered file .
It could happen very easily if the shattering file is not 100% conformed to the shattered file but in contact 3/4 of a BW to the front. So the friendly file benefiting the effect would not be next to the enemy shattered file . If need be I can sent pictures but they seem a bit to big for here sorry
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 04, 2023, 02:34:54 PM
Quote from: badhabum on January 04, 2023, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 03, 2023, 08:22:38 PM
Looking at how "next to" is used in the rules it seems to imply touching - I'd allow corner to corner in the absence of anything more specific (unless somebody can spot something).
BTW as far as I can see the bit in Supporting Files that says "Or be in such a position that aligning would have resulted in the above situations." (page 146 I 3.4) is not mentioned in the section on Shoves, Shatters, etc. and so will not apply.
Not sure about the second part of the answer . If the file is next to the shattering or shoving file, it does not need to be in contact with the shattered/shoved file . It's not mandatory or am I missing something ?
Sorry if I am being a bit opaque here.
To qualify as a Supporting File page 147 lays down a number of conditions as to the placing of a file (as I am sure you are well aware) - these include a provision that if aligning would have put you in a qualifying position you can be a supporting file even if that alignment hasn't actually taken place.
I mention it because whilst that provision is not mentioned in the section on when Shatter, etc. apply on page 147 I think that it is often played as if that provision does apply. (Unless I have missed something somewhere) I wonder if it ought to in order to avoid issues/cheese?
Hope that explains what I was on about.
Thanks
That's what I suspected and needed in writing as we do not have the pleasure of your presence on the continent sometimes people do discuss things and ask : are you sure ! where is it written ? so I ask the question try to go as far as possible to be able to answer fully
Tetrapilectomia drosophila's artis
In the PDF compendium it states that to benefit of shatter a neighbouring file must be paralel
It is not specified for shove.
is it intentional ? or does it have to be paralel ?
They should say the same thing - no reason why one is different other than it got missed out.
I am sure it will be tweaked for the next version. Thanks for spotting it.