Hi,
I'm looking at a design for an Imperial Roman army that has TUGs of 5 bases legionaries re-equipped with darts + a 6th base with a bolt shooter, marked as light artillery.
Has the fact that there is a bolt shooter in one of the files any bearing on the shooting properties of the darts in that same file (colour down? no shooting at all?), or not at all?
Please advise?
Huub
I believe the file containing the base with Light Artillery shooting would be able to shoot either with the Art or with the Darts but not both as a file only shoots once.
You could always go 4 wide and have 2 files firing as 2 ranks of darts, 1 file firing as Light Artillery and 1 file firing as a single rank of darts.
Not sure it is a good idea but......
Page 158, F.1 allows a file to shoot only once. You can shoot either the darts or the bolt shooter but not both.
Other points to note: The base itself cannot have both darts and light artillery. The bolt shooter could be in a third rank and shoot over the two ranks in front of it.
I must admit I really envisaged the bolt shooter being used with impact weapon legionaries. Artillery on the battlefield seems to have declined in the third century and I am not aware of any evidence for its use in the 4th century, although I am not aware of any evidence to suggest it wasn't used either. Artillery used to defend fortifications continued throughout the period - but we don't represent that in the army lists. With the collapse of the economy at the end of the Western Roman Empire artillery disappears entirely for several centuries.
Richard
So it's only redeeming factor would be the range then, really? Hmm... :-\
Is it even worth it, I wonder?
Quote from: DutchFromBelgium on September 27, 2022, 04:27:39 PM
So it's only redeeming factor would be the range then, really? Hmm... :-\
Is it even worth it, I wonder?
You could try
At least it could shoot from far away and be behind shield cover or may it not use shield cover if shooting from second rank ?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 27, 2022, 03:50:40 PM
Page 158, F.1 allows a file to shoot only once. You can shoot either the darts or the bolt shooter but not both.
Other points to note: The base itself cannot have both darts and light artillery. The bolt shooter could be in a third rank and shoot over the two ranks in front of it.
Richard
Quotewith any move the TuG may abandon the bolt shooters, in which case replace the artillery base with a
normal legionary base and revert to infantry speeds for movement thereafter. A UG with artillery is missile-focused and will require a card to charge, but can abandon the artillery and
charge at infantry speeds.
When it has been replaced with a "normal legionary base" does it have darts then (if the rest of the TUG does)? Also does the unit remain missile focused?
Might be worth clarifying in the 2023 edition.
The unit will be missile focused as long as any bases have non-Charge Only missile capability (see the definition) - so if the unit has Darts it will be, if IW then not.
If the boltshooter is in the second rank and the TUG does not shoot with darts ( even if it has them ) , the boltshooter may shoot overhead AND the TUG benefit from shield cover is that right
No.
Per the definition of Shield Cover:
Files choose whether to use shield cover or not when shot at - so that applies to the whole file.
Bases that have used Shield Cover cannot shoot.
As the legionary base with Light Artillery capability has Shield Cover if the file it is in uses Shield Cover then it cannot shoot.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 28, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
No.
Per the definition of Shield Cover:
Files choose whether to use shield cover or not when shot at - so that applies to the whole file.
Bases that have used Shield Cover cannot shoot.
As the legionary base with Light Artillery capability has Shield Cover if the file it is in uses Shield Cover then it cannot shoot.
FOR INFORMATION:
THIS RULE IS UNDER REVIEW FOR THE PDF EDITION. Simon's intention was that it should be a base that chooses whether to use Shield Cover or not and so it wouldn't apply to the whole file. The PDF edition words the rule this way, so that you could use Shield Cover in the front rank and shoot with the rear rank. In this situation the Bolt Shooter would be able to shoot.
It is perhaps worth adding that there is NO intention to introduce widespread rule changes with the PDF edition. There are however one or two situations, and this is one, where the rules might be tweaked. The intention is that the old rulebook won't be invalidated. I'll add an update about the PDF edition in the player discussion forum.
Richard
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 28, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
No.
Per the definition of Shield Cover:
Files choose whether to use shield cover or not when shot at - so that applies to the whole file.
Bases that have used Shield Cover cannot shoot.
As the legionary base with Light Artillery capability has Shield Cover if the file it is in uses Shield Cover then it cannot shoot.
Oh, I've used exactly that ploy in competition and nobody said anything. I had three deep Dart and Shield cover and said the front rank was shield cover and the back two ranks are shooting. It was with the Syrian Byzantines I think, so hardly likely to bother the podium - but still my opponents were happy with me doing it. Ooops!!
Dave,
I think there has been a lot of confusion over this rule, because the intention and what the rule actually said didn't match. It shows how one word can change the way the rule is played. It is why writing rules is difficult.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 28, 2022, 12:42:16 PM
Dave,
I think there has been a lot of confusion over this rule, because the intention and what the rule actually said didn't match. It shows how one word can change the way the rule is played. It is why writing rules is difficult.
Richard
Oh yes, I really do believe writing rules is difficult - which is why I'm grateful to those who do! Really looking forward to the PDF version ( ...and I heard you say on the podcast that a main priority is to avoid introducing new errors or problems through an innocent looking word change ... and I also believe that is a realistic worry!)
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 28, 2022, 11:36:34 AM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 28, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
No.
Per the definition of Shield Cover:
Files choose whether to use shield cover or not when shot at - so that applies to the whole file.
Bases that have used Shield Cover cannot shoot.
As the legionary base with Light Artillery capability has Shield Cover if the file it is in uses Shield Cover then it cannot shoot.
FOR INFORMATION:
THIS RULE IS UNDER REVIEW FOR THE PDF EDITION. Simon's intention was that it should be a base that chooses whether to use Shield Cover or not and so it wouldn't apply to the whole file. The PDF edition words the rule this way, so that you could use Shield Cover in the front rank and shoot with the rear rank. In this situation the Bolt Shooter would be able to shoot.
It is perhaps worth adding that there is NO intention to introduce widespread rule changes with the PDF edition. There are however one or two situations, and this is one, where the rules might be tweaked. The intention is that the old rulebook won't be invalidated. I'll add an update about the PDF edition in the player discussion forum.
Richard
Thanks for that - when I posted couldn't recall what the position was re: the PDF so thought it best not to say anything just in case.
Can be changed to say "Bases" choose whether to use Shield Cover which I think will do the trick.
Quote from: daveparish on September 28, 2022, 12:15:36 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 28, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
No.
Per the definition of Shield Cover:
Files choose whether to use shield cover or not when shot at - so that applies to the whole file.
Bases that have used Shield Cover cannot shoot.
As the legionary base with Light Artillery capability has Shield Cover if the file it is in uses Shield Cover then it cannot shoot.
Oh, I've used exactly that ploy in competition and nobody said anything. I had three deep Dart and Shield cover and said the front rank was shield cover and the back two ranks are shooting. It was with the Syrian Byzantines I think, so hardly likely to bother the podium - but still my opponents were happy with me doing it. Ooops!!
Same here. It was only earlier this year (IIRC) I realised the rules didn't actually allow it :P
On the bright side we have been playing as Simon intended even if not by the rules ;D
OK now we have a tournament next week-end and 5 imperial armies and a discussion :
My reading is that if a FILE chooses to use shield cover ( front base ) the file cannot shoot unless it has the shield cover & shoot capacity !
Others ( IR players ) contest that !
Now 2 different cases :
Usual roman TUG all files have shield cover so the file cannot shoot
Other unit types : only the front rank has shield cover not the second and third rank can the front rank use shield cover and the 2nd and Third rank shoot .
If I compare with the nikephorian byzantine skutatoi whose front rank has shield cover@shoot to enable the second rank who has no shield cover to shoot if shield cover is used my reading is to enable shooting, you must have that capacity : "& shoot"
Can someone clarify it
Quote from: badhabum on October 19, 2022, 08:22:32 AM
OK now we have a tournament next week-end and 5 imperial armies and a discussion :
My reading is that if a FILE chooses to use shield cover ( front base ) the file cannot shoot unless it has the shield cover & shoot capacity !
Others ( IR players ) contest that !
As posted previously this is what the rules say:
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 28, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
Per the definition of Shield Cover:
Files choose whether to use shield cover or not when shot at - so that applies to the whole file.
Bases that have used Shield Cover cannot shoot.
For a Roman unit where a legionary base has Light Artillery shooting capability if the
file it is in uses Shield Cover then it cannot shoot as the legionary base with Light Artillery capability has Shield Cover and all bases in the file use it if any do.
Quote
Now 2 different cases :
Usual roman TUG all files have shield cover so the file cannot shoot
Correct as noted above.
Quote
Other unit types : only the front rank has shield cover not the second and third rank can the front rank use shield cover and the 2nd and Third rank shoot .
Yes as only bases with Shield Cover are prohibited from shooting if the file uses Shield Cover - see the rules quote above.
Quote
If I compare with the nikephorian byzantine skutatoi whose front rank has shield cover@shoot to enable the second rank who has no shield cover to shoot if shield cover is used my reading is to enable shooting, you must have that capacity : "& shoot"
No. The "& Shoot" is what allows
bases with Shield Cover to claim the benefit of Shield Cover and also shoot. It has no effect on bases which do not have Shield Cover in respect of whether they can shoot or not.
Hy I think the problem comes from the rules pg 208 bullet2 of the definition of shield cover that stipulates that bases behind such a base ( having used shield cover ) may shoot and people just stick to that and forget the word file in point 1