As some are very busy rewriting the rules will there be an army lists update at the end of 2022 ?
Yes. I have already started on list changes for 2023.
Nothing major. The changes for Hellenistic thureophoroi are probably the most significant.
Richard
Sounds like a challenge ... ;)
Another look at the Inca perhaps?
They copped a savage, unexpected beat down last time.
Martin
Quote from: martymagnificent on September 07, 2022, 10:34:39 PM
Another look at the Inca perhaps?
They copped a savage, unexpected beat down last time.
Martin
Yes, they will get some impreovement.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 08, 2022, 07:07:18 AM
Quote from: martymagnificent on September 07, 2022, 10:34:39 PM
Another look at the Inca perhaps?
They copped a savage, unexpected beat down last time.
Martin
Yes, they will get some impreovement.
Richard
Oh god that insane dart army will be back.
<insert my favourite armies needing a bump too please>
Dru
I didn't say how much....
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 08, 2022, 11:04:29 AM
I didn't say how much....
Its ok I am just geeing up Marty. He's so good he doesn't need to play good armies.
I wouldn't worry, the 'super Inca' relied on an old version of the break off rules interacting with Fleet of Foot. With the changes to break off and the fact that the list is no longer fleet of foot (by and large) those days are gone.
Martin
If you all push your lists forward I will remind RJC of this : https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2413.msg17463#msg17463
Not where to flee
I was hoping you'd do some more research on that - looked a potentially interesting area to dig into.
I would also consider removing melee expert from mounted that already have Polearm.
It is silly 'double-dipping', creates a pretty drastic effect and there is no historical basis for it.
Martin
Just a question as I am not knowledgeable enough to push for a particular outcome - what happened in the lead up to the last list review about allowing mixed TuGs of Viking Huscarls and Hird? There was a discussion on the forum about considering it for 2022 but nothing happened. Was that deliberate?
Quote from: SteveO on September 08, 2022, 11:45:20 PM
Just a question as I am not knowledgeable enough to push for a particular outcome - what happened in the lead up to the last list review about allowing mixed TuGs of Viking Huscarls and Hird? There was a discussion on the forum about considering it for 2022 but nothing happened. Was that deliberate?
Can you point me to the topic? I cannot find it. I do have a change in the Viking list for 2023 which may be the issue you are referring to.
Richard
I remember there being a topic, but I cant find it now either.
From memory, it was along the lines of a player saying they thought it regrettable that Viking armies appeared so rarely in tournaments, and they felt that it was because the Vikings didn't have the ability to field mixed TuGS, unlike many of the Viking successor armies.
Simon H joined in and commented that it was something that was worth a look at.
Hope I haven't misrepresented anyone here!
No you are spot on Accard but I can't find the thread either. I think Dru was one of those lamenting the ineffectiveness of the Vikings from memory (Dru?) but Si definitely did say it was worth looking at.
Quote from: accard on September 09, 2022, 10:36:43 AM
I remember there being a topic, but I cant find it now either.
From memory, it was along the lines of a player saying they thought it regrettable that Viking armies appeared so rarely in tournaments, and they felt that it was because the Vikings didn't have the ability to field mixed TuGS, unlike many of the Viking successor armies.
Simon H joined in and commented that it was something that was worth a look at.
Hope I haven't misrepresented anyone here!
You weren't thinking of this one, were you? https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1119.msg9522#msg9522
No, not that one.
Quote from: accard on September 09, 2022, 10:36:43 AM
I remember there being a topic, but I cant find it now either.
From memory, it was along the lines of a player saying they thought it regrettable that Viking armies appeared so rarely in tournaments, and they felt that it was because the Vikings didn't have the ability to field mixed TuGS, unlike many of the Viking successor armies.
Simon H joined in and commented that it was something that was worth a look at.
Hope I haven't misrepresented anyone here!
Sounds like the change I have listed for 2023.
Richard
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 08, 2022, 08:11:02 PM
I was hoping you'd do some more research on that - looked a potentially interesting area to dig into.
I found nothing only the mention in the book and Asian sources are incompréhensible to me . But as sometimes one line is enough ..
Books ont Tibetans armies of that period are not easy to find but sometimes trust might be good enough . I do suppose that if the historian did mention the alliance and the sieges ..a sort of combined army existed and splited after defeat
Quote from: SteveO on September 09, 2022, 11:55:48 AM
No you are spot on Accard but I can't find the thread either. I think Dru was one of those lamenting the ineffectiveness of the Vikings from memory (Dru?) but Si definitely did say it was worth looking at.
It was on the MeG players FB page.
Si said "we should probably allow vikings an option and bondi behind in 6s and 9s. Then up to the general [and tagged RJC]"
I'll take some screenshots of the post and discussion:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdR5K7GC/meg-vikings1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdR5K7GC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WF48rYVF/meg-vikings2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WF48rYVF)
An old one that never seems to have been fully put to bed
Ming Artillery. There are two types (guns and cannon). There was an old thread where it was decided they would be experienced and for a while there was a list errata. When the 2022 lists came out the cannon are experienced but the guns are still unskilled. Assume one type was forgotten in the update (especially as they shoot as experienced if you chose to attach to another unit)?
On the topic of the Ming I would suggest that the firearm infantry being close is rather odd and that the lack of mixed formation options is also strange given the Ming enthusiasm for exotic infantry formations with an array of weapons (at least according to the GreatMingMilitary site)
Martin
Quote from: Dru on September 10, 2022, 02:28:34 AM
Quote from: SteveO on September 09, 2022, 11:55:48 AM
No you are spot on Accard but I can't find the thread either. I think Dru was one of those lamenting the ineffectiveness of the Vikings from memory (Dru?) but Si definitely did say it was worth looking at.
It was on the MeG players FB page.
Si said "we should probably allow vikings an option and bondi behind in 6s and 9s. Then up to the general [and tagged RJC]"
I'll take some screenshots of the post and discussion:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdR5K7GC/meg-vikings1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdR5K7GC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WF48rYVF/meg-vikings2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WF48rYVF)
The problem I see here is that it was on FB ! too many sources, too many social media ! I would stick to the forum for such things as such discussions are lost on FB . I know there is a proposal for discord, but if I can understand people want to go on discord you will loose many people who do not go on social media and frankly I will not follow on discord . FB and this forum are adequate enough .
This forum is definitely the best place for army list questions as it is easier to go back and find them.
However, if people post elsewhere we do take notice, but they are more easily lost.
A MeG Discord is already a thing for those who like that - https://discord.com/channels/992723574576119859/992723574576119861
Let's keep the thread on task: for 2023 list discussions.
Feel free to open other threads for other topics like the virtues of various forums for conversations.
Cheers,
Dru
I was looking at some lists in th meantime and.... I have to bring up something thats pretty much unimportant but still bothers me greatly. In asiatic succesors list the silver shields are superior.... well - why don't they have exceptional ? When I think of the best performing concrete tactical units in history (not formations mind you) of mankind this is the literal 1st that comes to mind. And seeing that for example Ceasers legion is exceptionalit is ... strange.
I know it is obviously a subjective topis but having this one TUG of exceptional pike in Eumenes' or Perdikas' lists propbaly wont be game breaking and there is no denying that the original silver shields literally conquered the known world - they are also better documented that for example the khans guard that has exceptional and have propably the most impressive battle record of any formation in antiquity.
What are your thoughts and opinions on this ?
Quote from: Alduin on September 11, 2022, 12:57:06 PM
I was looking at some lists in th meantime and.... I have to bring up something thats pretty much unimportant but still bothers me greatly. In asiatic succesors list the silver shields are superior.... well - why don't they have exceptional ? When I think of the best performing concrete tactical units in history (not formations mind you) of mankind this is the literal 1st that comes to mind. And seeing that for example Ceasers legion is exceptionalit is ... strange.
I know it is obviously a subjective topis but having this one TUG of exceptional pike in Eumenes' or Perdikas' lists propbaly wont be game breaking and there is no denying that the original silver shields literally conquered the known world - they are also better documented that for example the khans guard that has exceptional and have propably the most impressive battle record of any formation in antiquity.
What are your thoughts and opinions on this ?
See this topic for when it was discussed earlier this year - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2317.15
There are arguments for the idea and then, there is not a single good argumant for them being just "superior"
(two that are involved summarized as - "i like romans more than greeks" and "it wont improve the army" are to say the least not arguments at all.
For example: I like greeks more and i think that it will improve the army - i believe you are not convinced to change silver shields as exceptional rn- why would you expect that someone would change their opinion the other way around).
Idk if there is any more entitled unit in the classical age for the "exceptional" status. I do not plan on playing asiatic succesors or anything but ... it is just bizzare that some other units are clearly favored in this departament (like "pretorian guard"/"guard legionaries" - it is beyond me why they are held to such a high regard, ofc beside the fact that someone clearly liked romans a lot). Isnt it the whole idea of "exceptional" to reference certain very succesfull units ? Like cesars Xth or agema ? Not some units as abstracts (for example persian guard cav/legion guard - i am deeply unsure why they are not just "superior")
Quote from: martymagnificent on September 10, 2022, 03:15:15 AM
An old one that never seems to have been fully put to bed
Ming Artillery. There are two types (guns and cannon). There was an old thread where it was decided they would be experienced and for a while there was a list errata. When the 2022 lists came out the cannon are experienced but the guns are still unskilled. Assume one type was forgotten in the update (especially as they shoot as experienced if you chose to attach to another unit)?
On the topic of the Ming I would suggest that the firearm infantry being close is rather odd and that the lack of mixed formation options is also strange given the Ming enthusiasm for exotic infantry formations with an array of weapons (at least according to the GreatMingMilitary site)
Martin
Thoughts?
It will have been noted.
If I may quote Richard:
Quote
I have 630+ lists to sort out for 2023. I will not be giving updates on each individual change.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 13, 2022, 06:27:41 AM
It will have been noted.
If I may quote Richard:
Quote
I have 630+ lists to sort out for 2023. I will not be giving updates on each individual change.
Oh wow that is a LOT of work this far along in the MEG development.
Are you both reviewing every single one of the 630+ lists? That seems like a lot of work for lists that are supposed to be pretty much done?
Or just reviewing lists that people have asked questions about (Much MUCH less than 630+?) - though the quote above makes that seem not the case?
Bit surprised if you have to go through 630+ lists
again - wish you much luck and coffee!
Richard is making some formatting changes to further improve usability, so yes all the lists are getting some work on them - although in terms of army content those changes are a minority.
Ok, well if there is anything that the group can help with, please do shout out.
Quote from: Dru on September 13, 2022, 09:30:23 AM
Ok, well if there is anything that the group can help with, please do shout out.
If anyone is prepared to proof read the list sets once they have been updated then great. It involves checking the basics, like I haven't missed out a list, the contents correspond to the index etc. I won't pretend it is anything but dull, but I would really appreciate it. Private message me if you are prepared to help. Needs to be done between November and mid-December.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 13, 2022, 09:47:16 AM
Quote from: Dru on September 13, 2022, 09:30:23 AM
Ok, well if there is anything that the group can help with, please do shout out.
If anyone is prepared to proof read the list sets once they have been updated then great. It involves checking the basics, like I haven't missed out a list, the contents correspond to the index etc. I won't pretend it is anything but dull, but I would really appreciate it. Private message me if you are prepared to help. Needs to be done between November and mid-December.
Richard
Good idea!
Will be interesting to see how many people who are vocal about lists offer to help ;)
I'll send you a PM.
Dru
Two notes on the Later Northern Song list (Ghengis, pgs.18-21):
The section on Troop Notes mentions that "Caltrops were used as a defense against cavalry", but no LN Song troops have access to this characteristic. Would it be possible to spread some of that pointy love around the list?
(Most LN Song troops need all the help they can get against cavalry charges!)
Second (and more frivolously), would it be possible to revisit the rules for Dongwu Che battle wagons? The troop notes describes them as being commonly used to spearhead attacks in urban areas, but as battle wagons they cannot practically advance on an enemy (or charge them), and their crossbows are totally useless due to cover and sight rules in towns/villages (the only terrain they can operate in), which makes it practically impossible for them to do their described jobs.
I know this is a big ask for a specialist gimmick unit, but it's such a cool specialist gimmick unit that it's at least worth a little trouble, right? :P
Quote from: Doomsmile on September 20, 2022, 06:15:47 PM
Two notes on the Later Northern Song list (Ghengis, pgs.18-21):
The section on Troop Notes mentions that "Caltrops were used as a defense against cavalry", but no LN Song troops have access to this characteristic. Would it be possible to spread some of that pointy love around the list?
(Most LN Song troops need all the help they can get against cavalry charges!)
I'm afraid I think this is an old troop note that should have been removed when the Song lists got an overhaul for 2020. Some troops could have Caltrops before that reworking, but they didn't after it.
Also, IMO the Later Northern Song infantry with Polearm and Crossbow in the same unit are pretty effective against a lot of their historical opponents.
Yeah, not a list in desperate need of caltrops in my experience.
I still tend to think polearm should drop 5 points though. Essentially still just a worse, slightly more expensive, longspear.
Tend to agree the current version of the Dongwu Che is pretty much unplayable. I'm more bothered in general by the high cost battlewagons pay for polearm (44 points a base) and how little benefit they get from it. None of the polearms factor cancelling abilities matter to a battlewagon and it has a built in 'never works against infantry in melee' problem. Dropping the cost of polearm would help a little but I would suggest battlewagons should count polearm in a single rank against foot in melee (or the jumble of melee weapons that accompanied many wagons could be classified as something else).
On another fringe troops type, there was talk from RJC of lowering the cost of artillery SUG's, is this still being considered?
Martin
Quote from: Doomsmile on September 20, 2022, 06:15:47 PM
Second (and more frivolously), would it be possible to revisit the rules for Dongwu Che battle wagons? The troop notes describes them as being commonly used to spearhead attacks in urban areas, but as battle wagons they cannot practically advance on an enemy (or charge them), and their crossbows are totally useless due to cover and sight rules in towns/villages (the only terrain they can operate in), which makes it practically impossible for them to do their described jobs.
I know this is a big ask for a specialist gimmick unit, but it's such a cool specialist gimmick unit that it's at least worth a little trouble, right? :P
Must confess I am not sure of the basis of these anyway - when I did the rewrite of the Song I can't recall finding anything on them but left them in in case I had missed something and because they were something a bit different. I'd be interested if anyone find the source for them in Song times.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 21, 2022, 09:46:47 AM
Quote from: Doomsmile on September 20, 2022, 06:15:47 PM
Second (and more frivolously), would it be possible to revisit the rules for Dongwu Che battle wagons? The troop notes describes them as being commonly used to spearhead attacks in urban areas, but as battle wagons they cannot practically advance on an enemy (or charge them), and their crossbows are totally useless due to cover and sight rules in towns/villages (the only terrain they can operate in), which makes it practically impossible for them to do their described jobs.
I know this is a big ask for a specialist gimmick unit, but it's such a cool specialist gimmick unit that it's at least worth a little trouble, right? :P
Must confess I am not sure of the basis of these anyway - when I did the rewrite of the Song I can't recall finding anything on them but left them in in case I had missed something and because they were something a bit different. I'd be interested if anyone find the source for them in Song times.
In June 2016 Lawrence Ho posted in the facebook DBMM group translation of an extract from a book he had:
Quote《宋史·卷三六八·列傳第一百二十七》 勝嘗自創如意戰車數百兩 General Wei Shing (勝) invented and made several hundred War Wagons (Type A, the do as one wish Wagon, translator notes)，炮車數十兩 less than 100 Type B Stone Thrower Wagons (Type B, the Stone Thrower Wagon)，車上為獸面木牌 Animal Face Wooden Boards mounted on the Wagon (to protect the crew, notes added by the translator) ，大槍數十 less than 100 long spear (not firearms!)，垂氈幕軟牌 hanging heavy carpets to provide soft cover，每車用二人推轂 Each wagon was pushed by two men，可蔽五十人 can provide cover for 50 men。行則載輜重器甲 Carrying heavy equipments and supplies when moving，止則為營 serve as Camp when remaining stationery，掛搭如城壘 serve as Fortress when erecting additional parts on it.，人馬不能近 Neither men nor beast can approach it in close quarter (from outside, Translator Notes)；遇敵又可以御箭簇 Can provide cover to defense against arrowheads when meeting enemies 。列陣則如意車在外 The fighting formation: Type A War Wagon in exterior (as obstacle, translator notes) ，以旗蔽障 hanging flags to serve as hindrance and cover，弩車當陣門 Type C War Wagon (Ballista Vehicle) in key position of the formation，其上置床子弩 Mounting Ballista on top of the Wagon，矢大如鑿 the size of the ballista bolt is like a chisel ，一矢能射數人 A shot can hit several people (penetrate, translator notes)，發三矢可數百步 shoot 3 bolts can reach several hundred paces 。炮車在陣中 Type B Wagon (Stone throwers Wagon) in the centre of the battle formation ，施火石炮 firing rocket，亦二百步 can reach 200 paces。兩陣相近 If the enemies are close，則陣間發弓弩箭炮 the troops in the battle formation can shoot bow, crossbow and stone throwers (likely to be behind the cover provided by the man handled wagons)，近陣門則刀斧槍手突出 when the enemy reach the open area of this battle formation, swordsmen, spearmen and axemen will emerge and ambush them，交陣則出騎兵 If the enemy do not fight in close quarter, use Cavalry to attack ，兩響掩擊 Two signals to sound the attack，得捷拔陣追襲 When winning the battle, pursuit the enemy by unforming this battle formation，少卻則入陣間稍憩 If the enemy withdraw in order, retire inside this battle formation to rest。士卒不疲 The troops will not be tired，進退俱利 Facilitate retreat and advance。伺便出擊 Assist to wait and choose the right moment to begin attack ，慮有拒遏 Provide defense benefit (to delay and possibly stop the enemy) if consider not the day for the battle (i.e. hesitant to fight)，預為解脫計 Have prepared for activating the strategem for breaking out，夜習不使人見 Nobody can see your patrol in the night。以其制上於朝 Has reported this formation and its uses to the Emperor，詔諸軍遵其式造焉 The Emperor has ordered other armies to make them as well and follow the tactics.
The "Type A" seems to be (roughly speaking) a wheelbarrow with spears sticking out of the front. That would be pretty good for pushing down a narrow street against defenders. Not sure how it would be classified in MeG. Maybe more like a barricade than a battle wagon.
Thanks. Some of that looks a bit familiar.
More of a barricade vibe IMO.
(Song war wagons)
Or possibly a list-specific special rule that battlewagons of this sort can contact enemy.
Probably a list characteristic for infantry. TuGs. Bonus +2 in charge/melee combat if fighting in Towns (except at edge where you already get Barricades). Gives a reason for the player to select Towns as terrain which is probably fitting in China.
Richard
Not sure towns feature more frequently in battles in China than elsewhere.
please please number the lists and the pages....
Quote from: Jilu on September 28, 2022, 11:08:45 PM
please please number the lists and the pages....
Done. All lists will have a 4 digit number. The first is the era - 1: Chariot; 2: Classical; 3: Early Medieval; 4: Asian; 5: Medieval; 6:Americas; 7: Rennaisance.
Second digit is the list set. Last two digits are the army number. So Early Sumerian is 1101. Imperial Roman 2517 and so on.
All the allies and historical enemies have their numbers added.
Richard
As podcast listeners will have heard in the latest episode ;D
https://themegpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-meg-podcast-season-3-episode-1-the-late-roman-republic/
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 29, 2022, 07:36:38 AM
Quote from: Jilu on September 28, 2022, 11:08:45 PM
please please number the lists and the pages....
Done. All lists will have a 4 digit number. The first is the era - 1: Chariot; 2: Classical; 3: Early Medieval; 4: Asian; 5: Medieval; 6:Americas; 7: Rennaisance.
Second digit is the list set. Last two digits are the army number. So Early Sumerian is 1101. Imperial Roman 2517 and so on.
All the allies and historical enemies have their numbers added.
Richard
Wonderful! Kudos.
Dru
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 29, 2022, 07:49:48 AM
As podcast listeners will have heard in the latest episode ;D
https://themegpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-meg-podcast-season-3-episode-1-the-late-roman-republic/
Thank you but no time for podcast. There are too many channels already :-)
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 29, 2022, 07:36:38 AM
Quote from: Jilu on September 28, 2022, 11:08:45 PM
please please number the lists and the pages....
Done. All lists will have a 4 digit number. The first is the era - 1: Chariot; 2: Classical; 3: Early Medieval; 4: Asian; 5: Medieval; 6:Americas; 7: Rennaisance.
Second digit is the list set. Last two digits are the army number. So Early Sumerian is 1101. Imperial Roman 2517 and so on.
All the allies and historical enemies have their numbers added.
Richard
By the way would it be possible to specify the number when the list is indicated as an "ally" . When the ally is "lowland gallic" it is simple but when it is the name of a tribe that is part of a list that is not well known it is sometimes a bit difficult :)
Quote from: lionheartrjc on September 29, 2022, 07:36:38 AM
All the allies and historical enemies have their numbers added.
Richard
I stand corrected sir
15-2 to Nik on the forum thread today ;)