I am currently reading an essay by Major Charles Bruseten published in 1953.
He based his book un numeroeus archicves in Belgium.
In war times the army was composed of :
The main army
At least a secondary army
The guards of fortresses and cities
The army consisted of :
Nobles and their people
Communal militias
Foreign troops
They were grouped in Cavalry
Infantry
artillery
Genie (sappers and such)
And support services.
How was the army composed ?
Cavalry :
Nobles with barded horses were the shock troops
More lightly armed cavalry called men at arms (men that could afford their weapons) :
- Archers
- Crossbowmen
- Coustilliers
The men at arms mostly fought dismounted.
The pay records between 1453 and 1465 show :
As men at arms :
Mounted crossbowmen
Foot arquebus
Foot crossbowmen mounted coustilliers
Mounted archers
Foot archers
The artillery was not uniformed there were pieces coming from the nobles and the communes I read 7 different types of artillery pieces
Lances.
The Lances were different than those of France :
One Knight
3 archers
One page
One crossbowman
One firearm
One pikeman if used
Pikes : there were no pikes before 1465, these only appear in 1467 and originate from the communes.
Troops from the communes :
There was a special rule for them, they could not be used further than 1 days march from their commune, had to entre the campaign 8 days after the feudal militias.
The Duque requested the communes for pikemen, the communes delivered either happily or under duress, usually less than what was asked. In 1467 4000 men were provided in the war against Liege.
Pikemen were usually recruited when it was expected to fight cavalry and were not always used.
Liege was known not to have cavalry, so it is a mystery as to why they were recruited, probably in case France intervened or as garrison troops.
Foreign troops :
Swiss and germans joined in 1465
In 1466 there were 60 swiss
In 1467 2000 English archers
500 english archers at the siege of Sint truiden
Troop numbers:
1467 :
2350 lances not including archers
1468 and 1470
1389 Lances not including archers
Against Liege there were :
2200 Lances :
100 Banerts
300 knights
1000 men at arms with 3 horses
800 men at arms with 2 horses
1100 mounted archers
1100 foot archers
Other than lances :
22.000 Archers
What were the troops wearing:
Knights : full armor armed with lance, a sword or long 2 handed sword sometimes polearm, mace or other hand weapon
Archers ; a salet, brigandine sometimes other armor, bow and arrows, sword 1 or 2 handed, and 'batons' these were mainly polearms or Flemish pikes (goedendag), stakes
Coustilliers : polearm, javelin (shortspear?)
Crossbowmen : salet or other, chainmail, protections for the legs, crossbow and sword
The colors of the clothes: The men at arms (lances) wore the colors of their nobles.
The archers of the guard wore the same colors but with gold added.
There was no uniform for the other troops.
All looks rather interesting.
What list amendments would you suggest based on this?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 15, 2022, 08:50:32 AM
All looks rather interesting.
What list amendments would you suggest based on this?
Thing is all the lances-archers seem to have had polearm.
Knights should be filly armored ,and certainly melee expert, they were shock troops,
English later dates too
Crossbowmen optional
Coustilliers: polearm
Quote from: Jilu on August 11, 2022, 04:16:00 PM
I am currently reading an essay by Major Charles Bruseten published in 1953.
Is there anything on the web about this essay? Had a bit of a search and can't find anything myself, Google didn't even come up with anything for the name :(
Did come across this ordonnance for 1468 though - http://legioburgundiae.unblog.fr/category/ordonnances-anterieures-a-1471/
Am intrigued enough to want to do some digging myself :D
It is Charles Brusten but published in french
https://www.persee.fr/doc/bec_0373-6237_1956_num_114_1_461397_t1_0239_0000_001
It's even on amazon but in french
L'Armee Bourguignonne De 1465 A 1468 Paperback – January 1
You will have to either trust Jilu's analyses or learn french ;D
Had wondered if there may have been a PDF or just web page version which would make getting a (possibly humorous) translation possible.
Will rely on Jilu then ;D
Up to know found none of it but who knows
https://www.abebooks.com/LArm%C3%A9e-Bourguignonne-1465-1468-Brusten-Charles/30859220991/bd
At least we have some books still existing :-)
I had vaguely hoped it might be on Archive.org, but it appears not.
He researched the archives of our Army museum,
When looking at the contemporary illustrations it is interesting to see :
For cavalry you can see :
In the front of the drawing : stakes
First rank Knights
Second and third rank mounted crossbows
Infantry :
stakes
one rank of archers
second rank polearm
Or ;
stakes
aone rank of archers
second rank of men at arms
In other drawings it seems that archers units comprises polearms
On another topic nobles :
example of a Lance in 1468 :
899 nobles with 3 horses
177 demi-lances
49 mounted crossbows
178 Coustilliers
646 mounted archers
To represent the nobles it is interesting to know that they all had different banners depending on their status:
squire, he had to show his ability to fight before becomming a knight
knight - first as bas-chevalier or bachelier : used a pennon with two tails on a lance,
banneret : wealthy noble who has vassals, and comanded 25 to 50 minimum lesser nobles : used a banner (square or rectangular flag) that flag was the old pennon cut down to rectangular shape
The duque or army leaders had also an "étandard" bigger flame shaped flag with two tails
For instance :
When the duque marched on Dinant he had a flag with a mounted Saint George killing a serpent
His rachers had a "guidon" flag with a Saint Georges on foot killing the serpent
The flames banner with one flame were probably those of the bastards sons
Lesser nobles and rich burgers could also command demi-lances usualy without coustiliers or few pages
In battle there were common tactics :
First :
The archers moved by company each having the flags of the noble they belonged to and formed in hedge formation.
Artilery and archers, usualy on foot, shoot to try to disrupt the ennemy
second :
Once the enemy is concidered disrupted
knights intervene either mounted or dismounted (more comon)
The archers can support the hand to hand by getting into contact
the horses of the knights were kept by the pages
the horses of the archers by one of the archers (up to 12 horses per man holding them)
Third : pursuit by the the men at arms that did not dismount or by the rearguard
Any chance of posting those illustrations?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 19, 2022, 08:18:21 AM
Any chance of posting those illustrations?
i wish thing is it is a photocopy of the book i have i will see if i can but as i am not tech savy with this oldfashioned blog system i will try this weekend
Easiest maybe to take a picture and then upload as per these instructions - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1855.0
Quote from: Jilu on August 19, 2022, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 19, 2022, 08:18:21 AM
Any chance of posting those illustrations?
i wish thing is it is a photocopy of the book i have i will see if i can but as i am not tech savy with this oldfashioned blog system i will try this weekend
Bring it to mee I might scan it at work if all loose pages
Cheers Jacques ;D
To be honest I'm more interested due to going to Company of Saynt George re-enactment events than anything 8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N5Sz6XmT/20220819-120642.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N5Sz6XmT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/D4Wc0CCN/20220819-120647.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D4Wc0CCN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MX4DNSHJ/20220819-120654.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MX4DNSHJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cdd7c1F4/20220819-120700.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cdd7c1F4)
Ah, those ones.
Think they date from just after the period you are on about but by no more than a decade at the most.