In a recent game we had two different interpretations of displacing Skirmishers, so the question is can you displace skirmishers in the charge, providing the other criteria for displacement is met?
Displacement rule says "any movement with bases" can displace a SUG.
specifically in a charge phase you can displace skirmishers?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 10:26:17 AM
Displacement rule says "any movement with bases" can displace a SUG.
If that is the case then what is the point of moving skirmishers out of the way before charges?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 10:26:17 AM
Displacement rule says "any movement with bases" can displace a SUG.
So you tell us that during charge phase, it is not necessary to move a SUG out of the way of a charge as anyway you could displace a SUG to make room for the charge 8)
So if the way of the charge is "blocked" by a mounted SUG base, you might move it out of the way but then what is a valid charge path ?
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
Quote from: Hammy on August 03, 2022, 12:16:39 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 10:26:17 AM
Displacement rule says "any movement with bases" can displace a SUG.
If that is the case then what is the point of moving skirmishers out of the way before charges?
I agree and second
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:20:06 PM
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
But pg 119 stipulates 2 ways to avoid a friendly unit in the way of the charge and pushing a SUG out of the way is not part of it !
Where do you see that it is up to 1 BW as the rule pg 114 stipulates "by the minimum necessary" which can be much more than 1 BW ..there is no limit
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:20:06 PM
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
OK, so a foot SuG that is 1 BW away from an enemy line gets charged through by a 2 deep TuG of say long spear cataphracts then the SuG ends up being displaced back 1/2 BW and all is good?
If the charging cavalry are devastating chargers or lancers and are not ordered not to charge they burst through the skirmishers and kill them before they can displace??
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 12:31:21 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:20:06 PM
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
But pg 119 stipulates 2 ways to avoid a friendly unit in the way of the charge and pushing a SUG out of the way is not part of it !
Where do you see that it is up to 1 BW as the rule pg 114 stipulates "by the minimum necessary" which can be much more than 1 BW ..there is no limit
Its in the f-ing clarries - "• DISPLACING SUGs Page 114 K 1 should read "... displaced by the minimum necessary up to a maximum of 1BW ..." to be thereby consistent with Page 80 Universal Rule 16."
As for Pg 119 that tells you options for the charging unit, there is no reason that the displacement rule does not also apply IMO as it is a universal rule that applies at "any" time, although it may have been useful to mention it there as well :)
Quote from: Hammy on August 03, 2022, 12:32:10 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:20:06 PM
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
OK, so a foot SuG that is 1 BW away from an enemy line gets charged through by a 2 deep TuG of say long spear cataphracts then the SuG ends up being displaced back 1/2 BW and all is good?
If the charging cavalry are devastating chargers or lancers and are not ordered not to charge they burst through the skirmishers and kill them before they can displace??
I would say that such a displacement hasn't really allowed the move as the charger still has to make an illegal interpenetration so cannot be made and if the chargers are forced charging then the usual penalties apply.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:43:27 PM
Quote from: Hammy on August 03, 2022, 12:32:10 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:20:06 PM
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
OK, so a foot SuG that is 1 BW away from an enemy line gets charged through by a 2 deep TuG of say long spear cataphracts then the SuG ends up being displaced back 1/2 BW and all is good?
If the charging cavalry are devastating chargers or lancers and are not ordered not to charge they burst through the skirmishers and kill them before they can displace??
I would say that such a displacement hasn't really allowed the move as the charger still has to make an illegal interpenetration so cannot be made and if the chargers are forced charging then the usual penalties apply.
Fair enough.
So if a charge needs to displace a SuG upto 1 BW sideways it can do so but you cannot pass through as it is an illegal interpenetration? That makes sense to me.
Overall as I see it you could potentially displace a SUG 1 BW, make a 1/2 BW shift and contract by 1 file to get a charge in 8)
👍
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:41:01 PM
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 12:31:21 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:20:06 PM
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
But pg 119 stipulates 2 ways to avoid a friendly unit in the way of the charge and pushing a SUG out of the way is not part of it !
Where do you see that it is up to 1 BW as the rule pg 114 stipulates "by the minimum necessary" which can be much more than 1 BW ..there is no limit
Its in the f-ing clarries - "• DISPLACING SUGs Page 114 K 1 should read "... displaced by the minimum necessary up to a maximum of 1BW ..." to be thereby consistent with Page 80 Universal Rule 16."
As for Pg 119 that tells you options for the charging unit, there is no reason that the displacement rule does not also apply IMO as it is a universal rule that applies at "any" time, although it may have been useful to mention it there as well :)
Oh yes the clarries ...sorry but a PDF version for the rules, a version which could be updated regularly and downloaded regularly might also solve this clarries problem 8)
the turn sequence of the charge phase is not respected.
SP2.1 page 83 does say that SUGS must be moved first prior the charge declarations.
Displacing sugs after this are not mentioned in the turn sequence.
If you could move SUG by displacing them 2.6 would say move chargers and displace sugs if possible.
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 02:44:56 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:41:01 PM
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 12:31:21 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 12:20:06 PM
Because you can only displace up to 1 BW, the 2.1 move provision allows a greater movement and also more options in how you move.
But pg 119 stipulates 2 ways to avoid a friendly unit in the way of the charge and pushing a SUG out of the way is not part of it !
Where do you see that it is up to 1 BW as the rule pg 114 stipulates "by the minimum necessary" which can be much more than 1 BW ..there is no limit
Its in the f-ing clarries - "• DISPLACING SUGs Page 114 K 1 should read "... displaced by the minimum necessary up to a maximum of 1BW ..." to be thereby consistent with Page 80 Universal Rule 16."
As for Pg 119 that tells you options for the charging unit, there is no reason that the displacement rule does not also apply IMO as it is a universal rule that applies at "any" time, although it may have been useful to mention it there as well :)
Oh yes the clarries ...sorry but a PDF version for the rules, a version which could be updated regularly and downloaded regularly might also solve this clarries problem 8)
there are so many claries that these have become unreadable.
Would have been better to rewrite the paragraphs completely instead of adding this phrase there or that word between this and that...
how many now? 4 pages?
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 02:44:56 PM
Oh yes the clarries ...sorry but a PDF version for the rules, a version which could be updated regularly and downloaded regularly might also solve this clarries problem 8)
Alas, that happy day is not upon us - and until them perhaps you could do us the courtesy of actually reading the clarries.
Quote from: Jilu on August 03, 2022, 03:04:33 PM
the turn sequence of the charge phase is not respected.
SP2.1 page 83 does say that SUGS must be moved first prior the charge declarations.
Displacing sugs after this are not mentioned in the turn sequence.
If you could move SUG by displacing them 2.6 would say move chargers and displace sugs if possible.
By that logic you could not make a displacement when making a move in the Movement Phase as it is not mentioned in 4.3 :o
That is clearly daft.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 03:17:05 PM
Quote from: Jilu on August 03, 2022, 03:04:33 PM
the turn sequence of the charge phase is not respected.
SP2.1 page 83 does say that SUGS must be moved first prior the charge declarations.
Displacing sugs after this are not mentioned in the turn sequence.
If you could move SUG by displacing them 2.6 would say move chargers and displace sugs if possible.
By that logic you could not make a displacement when making a move in the Movement Phase as it is not mentioned in 4.3 :o
That is clearly daft.
You are right !
it is allowed on page 119
I read this that any friends can be moved , not just SUGs
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 03, 2022, 03:14:11 PM
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 02:44:56 PM
Oh yes the clarries ...sorry but a PDF version for the rules, a version which could be updated regularly and downloaded regularly might also solve this clarries problem 8)
Alas, that happy day is not upon us - and until them perhaps you could do us the courtesy of actually reading the clarries.
I read the clarries but they have become a mess ! Too many clarries have killed the clarries because you mention a phrase here and there . Perhaps the clarries should be clarified by organising them as if it is the rulebook, page per page .
Better a PDF version and postposing it is an option, yes ..but this is 21st century
Draft us something as an example - we're always happy to take on ideas that make things easier for players.
So technically, during the charge phase, you can move a skirmisher which was partially in front of the charger to place it closer to the enemy, then displace them by 1 bw when the charger move so to engineer a shooting at point blank during the shooting phase?
This is utterly cheesy.
Especially when you consider that the skirmisher was able to move backward to allow space for the chargers.
If this is the way it was clarified so be it.
since there is a charge phase and a movement phase, if displacing a sug by 1bw is allowed for any movement pls make clear that it is valid both for charge and movement phase (for me movement = movement phase).
Thanks
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 02:44:56 PM
Oh yes the clarries ...sorry but a PDF version for the rules, a version which could be updated regularly and downloaded regularly might also solve this clarries problem 8)
I agree. I can understand how they have turned out to be neccessary playing the game, but you cannot keep adding to the heap. It's like patching up potholes in a road until the whole surface has become like a washboard. It becomes unuseable. It needs to be completely resurfaced.
An updated version is called for, and a lot of time, cost and effort could be saved by choosing a PDF solution, like ReG. All in all a constructive proposal I'd say.
Quote from: Rino on August 04, 2022, 08:43:06 AM
So technically, during the charge phase, you can move a skirmisher which was partially in front of the charger to place it closer to the enemy, then displace them by 1 bw when the charger move so to engineer a shooting at point blank during the shooting phase?
The move at the start of the charge phase is only allowed to allow a friendly unit to charge - i.e. the unit could not charge if the move was not made - this will restrict what you can do with the move. Likewise, the displacement is the minimum required up to 1 BW with restrictions on when you can do it, and so is again somewhat limited. I'm sure that in some specific circumstances you may well be able to engineer something to your advantage with this - how easy that may be is, I think, moot; to date I haven't seen anything egregious but should it happen I am sure we'll look into it.
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since there is a charge phase and a movement phase, if displacing a sug by 1bw is allowed for any movement pls make clear that it is valid both for charge and movement phase (for me movement = movement phase).
IMO as the rule on displacing SUGs on page 80 says "at any time" and "any movement of any kind", and page 114 say "any movement" the rules are clear that it isn't limited to the Movement Phase.
Quote from: ThatDutchGuyFromBelgium on August 04, 2022, 08:49:48 AM
Quote from: badhabum on August 03, 2022, 02:44:56 PM
Oh yes the clarries ...sorry but a PDF version for the rules, a version which could be updated regularly and downloaded regularly might also solve this clarries problem 8)
I agree. I can understand how they have turned out to be neccessary playing the game, but you cannot keep adding to the heap. It's like patching up potholes in a road until the whole surface has become like a washboard. It becomes unuseable. It needs to be completely resurfaced.
An updated version is called for, and a lot of time, cost and effort could be saved by choosing a PDF solution, like ReG. All in all a constructive proposal I'd say.
A PDF version of the rules, and its updating is something in the hands of PSC. I think most of us see the benefit of that approach, but they are the people needing persuading :D
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 04, 2022, 09:07:07 AM
Quote from: Rino on August 04, 2022, 08:43:06 AM
So technically, during the charge phase, you can move a skirmisher which was partially in front of the charger to place it closer to the enemy, then displace them by 1 bw when the charger move so to engineer a shooting at point blank during the shooting phase?
The move at the start of the charge phase is only allowed to allow a friendly unit to charge - i.e. the unit could not charge if the move was not made - this will restrict what you can do with the move. Likewise, the displacement is the minimum required up to 1 BW with restrictions on when you can do it, and so is again somewhat limited. I'm sure that in some specific circumstances you may well be able to engineer something to your advantage with this - how easy that may be is, I think, moot; to date I haven't seen anything egregious but should it happen I am sure we'll look into it.
This is utterly cheesy.
Especially when you consider that the skirmisher was able to move backward to allow space for the chargers.
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since there is a charge phase and a movement phase, if displacing a sug by 1bw is allowed for any movement pls make clear that it is valid both for charge and movement phase (for me movement = movement phase).
IMO as the rule on displacing SUGs on page 80 says "at any time" and "any movement of any kind", and page 114 say "any movement" the rules are clear that it isn't limited to the Movement Phase.
It complicates things.
It would be better to say, you can only move a SUG out of a charge path by using a white card it is clean and simple.
But yes page 119 allows 1/2 base move, we always played this for the chargers movement not for other units that are in the charge path.
And yes page 80 and page 114 confirm you can move the SUGS during mouvements
now page 114 is relative to mouvements during the mouvement phase not charge phase.
page 80 is for sugs to make room for any mouvement might it thus not be restircted to the mouvement phase?
Can a SUG be displaced to avoid it being burst through by routers?
Also if you can displace SUGS, you can also displace artillery? What about the barricades are these displaced too as these are part of the unit charecteristics?
Is a charge a mouvement or a Charge ?
Quote from: Jilu on August 04, 2022, 10:08:34 AM
But yes page 119 allows 1/2 base move, we always played this for the chargers movement not for other units that are in the charge path.
Nobody has said that troops other than those moving can make a 1/2 base shift - the universal 1/2 base shift is only allowed for troops moving, in the case of p119 those are chargers.
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And yes page 80 and page 114 confirm you can move the SUGS during mouvements
"Any" movement and, p80, "at any time" - not restricted to any particular turn phase.
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now page 114 is relative to mouvements during the mouvement phase not charge phase.
It does not say that it only applies in the Movement phase. Other rules in the Movement chapter are limited to the movement phase - e.g. pushing back enemy SUGs - however, in those cases that is stated.
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page 80 is for sugs to make room for any mouvement might it thus not be restircted to the mouvement phase?
No as it is "any movement of any kind".
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Can a SUG be displaced to avoid it being burst through by routers?
Good question; I think so as routers make a rout
move so would qualify as "any movement of any kind".
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Also if you can displace SUGS, you can also displace artillery? What about the barricades are these displaced too as these are part of the unit charecteristics?
Yes as they are SUGs. Barricades are not actually part of the UG so would obviously not be displaced.
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Is a charge a mouvement or a Charge ?
Movement obviously - if it wasn't it couldn't get the 1/.2 base shift (for example) as that only applies to moves.