On the QRS there are distances for the visibility of cover eg 3bw. What it doesn't qualify is from who's point of view. Is it that a unit in cover is only visible when this distance from the edge or is it a unit viewing an enemy in the cover need to be that close or even both.
Clearly, if you are a mile from a wood, you could see troops at the edge just as clearly as if you were 50 feet away, so I've assumed it only applies to those in the cover. However, people have suggested that it's the unit looking in. Some have suggested both must apply.
Which is it?
As far as I am aware visibility only affects two situations, ambushes (9.10 B.5 page 181) and shooting (9.6 C.2 page 155). Note you can charge a UG that isn't visible.
In the terrain charge there are three distinct forms of wording:
1 visible within 2BW over a ridge (hills, mountains and sand dunes)
2 x visible at YBW. (brush, tall crops, village, boundaried fields, orchards, vineyards, town, woods and forest)
3 visible at YBW from outside, those inside can see and shoot out (gully, wadi).
For 1, must a ridge line be clearly defined? If a hill comes to a single high point, there is in effect an infinite series of ridge lines from the high point in all directions. If UGs are either side of one of those lines then visibility is reduced. If a hill is modelled or shows ridge lines rather than a single high point, then the UGs must be either side of one of those ridge lines for visibility to be restricted.
For 2, visibility goes both ways. If the UG within x BW of the edge of the terrain, they can see out and can be seen. So an ambush must start at least x BW from the edge of the terrain (visible from the opponent's half or from the opponent's half of the table).
For 3, visibility is one way. You can only see in if you are within Y BW, but from inside you can see out. This is the only case that provides the opportunity to shoot but not be shot at due to visibility. An ambusher can be placed at the edge of the terrain as long as the terrain does not go into the opponent's half of the table).
Hope that is clear.
Richard
Having just sorted a clarries update I think this should go in the next one.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 01, 2022, 01:02:28 PM
As far as I am aware visibility only affects two situations, ambushes (9.10 B.5 page 181) and shooting (9.6 C.2 page 155). Note you can charge a UG that isn't visible.
In the terrain charge there are three distinct forms of wording:
1 visible within 2BW over a ridge (hills, mountains and sand dunes)
2 x visible at YBW. (brush, tall crops, village, boundaried fields, orchards, vineyards, town, woods and forest)
3 visible at YBW from outside, those inside can see and shoot out (gully, wadi).
For 1, must a ridge line be clearly defined? If a hill comes to a single high point, there is in effect an infinite series of ridge lines from the high point in all directions. If UGs are either side of one of those lines then visibility is reduced. If a hill is modelled or shows ridge lines rather than a single high point, then the UGs must be either side of one of those ridge lines for visibility to be restricted.
For 2, visibility goes both ways. If the UG within x BW of the edge of the terrain, they can see out and can be seen. So an ambush must start at least x BW from the edge of the terrain (visible from the opponent's half or from the opponent's half of the table).
For 3, visibility is one way. You can only see in if you are within Y BW, but from inside you can see out. This is the only case that provides the opportunity to shoot but not be shot at due to visibility. An ambusher can be placed at the edge of the terrain as long as the terrain does not go into the opponent's half of the table).
Hope that is clear.
Richard
isn't 1 ridge visibility the same as that for 2, the wording is 'all visible with in 2 BW of a ridge' so if I'm within 2BW of a ridge I can see all on the other side of the ridge no matter the distance away, unless blocked by other terrain, and all on that side can also see me from any distance? Visibility is only reduced if you are beyond 2BW of the ridge line
Regards
Matt
2 x visible at YBW. (brush, tall crops, village, boundaried fields, orchards, vineyards, town, woods and forest)
It seems to me that means you have to be "at" i.e. within the specified distance of the covered target to see it.
In my experience, if you are outside a wood looking in, it is hard to see any depth into it because it's relatively dark inside and the edge tends to have more greenery down to the ground (because it gets more light than the interior). But it is easier to see out if you are inside.
"Visibility is blocked by y BW of (terrain types)" would have been the best way to express what RJC said was intended.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 01, 2022, 01:02:28 PM
As far as I am aware visibility only affects two situations, ambushes (9.10 B.5 page 181) and shooting (9.6 C.2 page 155). Note you can charge a UG that isn't visible.
In the terrain charge there are three distinct forms of wording:
1 visible within 2BW over a ridge (hills, mountains and sand dunes)
2 x visible at YBW. (brush, tall crops, village, boundaried fields, orchards, vineyards, town, woods and forest)
3 visible at YBW from outside, those inside can see and shoot out (gully, wadi).
For 1, must a ridge line be clearly defined? If a hill comes to a single high point, there is in effect an infinite series of ridge lines from the high point in all directions. If UGs are either side of one of those lines then visibility is reduced. If a hill is modelled or shows ridge lines rather than a single high point, then the UGs must be either side of one of those ridge lines for visibility to be restricted.
For 2, visibility goes both ways. If the UG within x BW of the edge of the terrain, they can see out and can be seen. So an ambush must start at least x BW from the edge of the terrain (visible from the opponent's half or from the opponent's half of the table).
For 3, visibility is one way. You can only see in if you are within Y BW, but from inside you can see out. This is the only case that provides the opportunity to shoot but not be shot at due to visibility. An ambusher can be placed at the edge of the terrain as long as the terrain does not go into the opponent's half of the table).
Hope that is clear.
Richard
isn't this interpretation different than the one given here:
https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2064.0
?
QuoteNote you can charge a UG that isn't visible.
Charge the not visible ? why not charge emptiness ? can you confirm you may charge what you do not see
Page 116 A 2
Quote from: nikgaukroger on April 14, 2022, 12:39:28 PM
Page 116 A 2
Ok it is still very strange to me but do you have a forced charge on an unseen enemy ?
The rules on forced charges don't say anything about visibility, only that you need enemy TUGS within certain distances IIRC.
A question, I just read the clarries and I am confused by these words.
"2 x visible at YBW. (brush, tall crops, village, boundaried fields, orchards, vineyards, town, woods and forest)"
"For 2, visibility goes both ways. If the UG within x BW of the edge of the terrain, they can see out and can be seen. So an ambush must start at least x BW from the edge of the terrain (visible from the opponent's half or from the opponent's half of the table)."
OK so to start with in the longer explanation the distance is referred to as x but in the first reference x is the unit which is visible at y BW.
If I assume it is meant to be at least y BW from the edge of terrain then troops ambushing cannot do so on the edge of a wood but must do some distance inside the wood.
So if it's "Infantry visible at 3 BW" then:
Infantry in the terrain can neither see nor be seen through more than 3 BW of terrain.
Infantry outside the terrain can see and be seen by non-infantry through any amount of the terrain.
Infantry outside the terrain cannot be seen by infantry outside the terrain through more than 3 BW of the terrain (i.e. the terrain is between them) - not so sure about his one.
Actual distance between observer and observed is irrelevant. Only the part of the line of sight passing through the terrain counts.
Is that it?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 01, 2022, 01:02:28 PM
For 1, must a ridge line be clearly defined? If a hill comes to a single high point, there is in effect an infinite series of ridge lines from the high point in all directions. If UGs are either side of one of those lines then visibility is reduced. If a hill is modelled or shows ridge lines rather than a single high point, then the UGs must be either side of one of those ridge lines for visibility to be restricted.
Hello Richard, I am not sure to understand how visibility work for hills and mountains.
In case of ridge lines, a UG on one side can only see up to xHBW (x defined in the rulebook) on other side? Visibility from/towards outside the terrain is unaffected unless it pass through the ridge line?
In case of a ridge point, visibility is only at xHBW inside/passing through the terrain unless the line of sight direction go exactly upward towards the ridge point (or downhill following the same line in the opposite direction)?
Thanks in advance
Quote from: francesco on August 08, 2023, 10:13:55 PM
Hello Richard, I am not sure to understand how visibility work for hills and mountains.
In case of ridge lines, a UG on one side can only see up to xHBW (x defined in the rulebook) on other side? Visibility from/towards outside the terrain is unaffected unless it pass through the ridge line?
In case of a ridge point, visibility is only at xHBW inside/passing through the terrain unless the line of sight direction go exactly upward towards the ridge point (or downhill following the same line in the opposite direction)?
Thanks in advance
x is the distance from on UG to the UG it is trying to shoot at. If there is a ridge line between the two UGs that is when the visibility is limited to x. So if they are more than x apart and there is a ridge line between them they cannot shoot at each other.
If the hill goes to a central point, then essentially there is an infinite number of ridge lines originating from the central point to the edge of the terrain feature. If any of those lines is between the two UGs then their visibility will be limited to x.
If in doubt, use common sense and agree with your opponent before the game begins.
Richard