Would it be reasonable that loose unprotected archers should have the option to run if charged.
I think the biggest issue is that you could then use them to draw out forced charges.
One I will stick on the consideration list.
S
it was discussed a few years ago i think.
I like the idea, but would surrounding units not see this as units running away and maybe think these are routing?
it would have to be restricted to certain type of shooters, not all shooters.
Maybe it would be better to give unprotected foot shooters a sort of fleet of foot option so they ran fall back a bit further away?
What historical examples are there of this occurring?
Sounds like...skirmishers?
Agree with ShrubMik. Archers who move around are represented by SUGs. I think you could make a much better case that archer TUGs are already too mobile. Is there much evidence for archers firing while steadily withdrawing (which they can with M13 moves)?
okay but is there much evidence of archers staying to die quick?
Well, here's some evidence of archers not staying to die quick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Benevento#Battle
As a person who is new to both the game and this level of military history, it isn't super clear to me why one group of archers would stand and fight and others wouldn't in the same army, unless the stand and fight type also had melee training or melee equipment of some kind?
My thought would be to add an characteristic to TUGs that would allow them to not hold the line (ie run away or skirmish). I think the reduced mobility of TUGs will still give a skirmishing archer a place in an army. And you could use the characteristic the price out the usefulness of it.
TUG archers do have "melee training or melee equipment of some kind" sufficient to give them +2 vs SuG archers.
Just not enough to give them a + vs other TUGs.
Quote from: Jilu on March 07, 2022, 11:07:03 PM
okay but is there much evidence of archers staying to die quick?
Marathon. Plataea.
Quote from: grahambriggs on April 28, 2022, 10:34:26 AM
Quote from: Jilu on March 07, 2022, 11:07:03 PM
okay but is there much evidence of archers staying to die quick?
Marathon. Plataea.
They had close combat capabilities. Even so, when things started going badly, they didn't stick around to die, they ran away.
The difference between archers classified as TuG and archers classified as SuGs is not that SuGs can run away.
Both can run away. The difference is SuGs can come back after they have run away. TuGs just keep going.
QuoteBoth can run away. The difference is SuGs can come back after they have run away. TuGs just keep going.
TUGs are just broken :-)
The main problem of unprotected loose order bows is they are pretty fragile vs any shooty opponent
Quote from: badhabum on May 02, 2022, 07:50:06 PM
The main problem of unprotected loose order bows is they are pretty fragile vs any shooty opponent
And their second problem is they are pretty fragile vs any close-combaty opponent.
Other than that, they're fine.
Unprotected shortspears are often fleet of foot, unprotected bowmen are not...i wonder why
An option to consider might be to allow them a run away response to being charged but not a skirmish response. I suspect this might be useful in certain circumstances e.g. where they have a wood behind them that they can run back into. That sounds reasonable to me and not something that will massively change the balance of the game.
They do appear very much the worst troop type, only taken if a list requires them.
Perhaps they should get an automatic free 'Integral shooters' characteristic to boost their effectiveness against the enemy initial charge. They do after all have integral shooters!
I am quite interested in this discussion because at times I get frustrated with the difficulty in getting archers to actually shoot for a period of time. However I think that is perhaps the result of mistaken expectations. Unprotected foot archers are by their nature not good at standing up in combat and should not be expected to be. Forgive me if I am barking up the wrong tree here as I have never played against a person who really knows the rules, all my games have been solo or to try to show others how the game works (and in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king), but I think that you need to put them in the right place (terrain of some sort or with troops who can protect them with an intercept charge etc.). Also, don't forget that with an ounce of luck, three or four white dice can really slow down an opponent or at least damage them and this leaves the opposing unit vulnerable to units supporting the archers.
Other missile troops are better protected and/or dual armed with spears and so can combat with a better chance of success because that is what they are designed to do. I don't think that that is the case with the poor old unprotected loose formation foot archer.
I'm with Mr Oz on this. There is a reason every ancient rules sets I have used have "rubbish" troops in them be they loose archers who'd rather be anywhere else or peasant spearmen who crumble on first contact. You don't always get a stellar army to fight with. Make the most of what they can do rather than want you hope they'll do
Wayne
Quote from: Kokor Hekkus on February 27, 2022, 12:04:21 PM
Would it be reasonable that loose unprotected archers should have the option to run if charged.
I would go as far as to suggest that any tug that has only missile weapons and no melee weapon listed should have the option to at least run away. I doubt massed archers would ever skirmish or evade in a skirmisher fashion, and in terms of MeG, they'd only go 1bw anyway so not a lot of point.
Quote from: LawrenceG on May 03, 2022, 09:02:08 AM
Quote from: badhabum on May 02, 2022, 07:50:06 PM
The main problem of unprotected loose order bows is they are pretty fragile vs any shooty opponent
And their second problem is they are pretty fragile vs any close-combaty opponent.
Other than that, they're fine.
Vs foot opponents they can still slow them down and move backwards ...but difficult to outrange enemy bows or crossbows