Situation: two TuGs fighting frontally against one, all neatly aligned so we have corner to corner base contact. And let's further say it is corner to corner TuG contact (I'm only playing PACTO so this will inevitably be true in my case!)
There's nothing to physically block the UG fighting as a supporting file from wheeling onto the flank in the movement phase.
Is it allowed to do so? Can it claim the +2 in melee?
I keep wavering back and forth on my interpretation of this, and only playing solo means my opponent has never felt confident enough to point out my error ;)
p132 possibly forbids this, depending on the precise interpretation of "already touching an enemy UG but currently not fighting it".
But p146 says that a supporting file is not itself engaged in a fight but is supporting a neighbouring file which is.
I have seen some people make statements in this forum that you can only claim the +2 if you previously claimed the +4 in charge combat.
But I don't see this in the rules?
The melee combat claims says "File qualifying as a flank or rear combat", but I don't see an explanation of what this means. (Note that the charge combat claims says "File qualifying as a flank or rear charge" - that is explained very well in the rules but it is not obvious how the two relate).
I have also seen Simon make a comment that you can't immediately gain a serious advantage from an overlap because in reality the defenders are would be able to react, some on the flanks would turn and spread out beyond the confines of our artificially rigid bases to meet the threat. But also, given time on an open flank you would gain more of an advantage. Which might imply that you can get the +2 later.
The rules on page 132 - Engaging in melee when already in contact apply. Specifically 2.1 "where an UG is in front corner only contact with an enemy front corner". I can't see how you can write that clearer.
Flank/rear is defined in the glossary, p 215.
Be wary of what people (including myself) say in statements as they a) depend on context and b) people can get sloppy in their use of language.
Richard
Okay, the glossary entry seems helpful.
Re. page 132, section 2.1 does seem to read very clearly when taken in isolation, but it appears within section 2 that says "currently not fighting". Which seems to imply section 2.1 also applies only when "currently not fighting". And "currently not fighting" seems unclear to me.
Oh wait...I was going to say I didn't find "fighting" or "not fighting" in the glossary, but I just now spotted "out of combat". To be in combat requires at least one base fighting an "enemy front base such that they will fight file-to-file in melee combat".
Now the terminology being different might allow some room for doubt, but I'm going to go with the everyday, common-sense English philosophy of rule writing rather than Barker-ese, so I'm thinking this means that a UG fighting only as supporting file (to one or both sides" counts as not in combat, which also means not "currently fighting" in p132 section 2".
So the actual answer to my questions is: yes they can wheel into flank contact; yes they can claim the +2? (Assuming enemy does not turn some bases to face, which is impossible in PACTO since they are still in contact to their front).
Sorry to prod, but I still don't think this is clear enough for me to be confident I have it right. And I don't recall seeing a supporting file UG wheel onto a flank in any of the videos I have watched.
If somebody could just tell me plainly how it is actually played it would be much appreciated, ta! 8)
The key question re. p132 M: Section 2 seems to be whether a supporting file is considered to be "fighting" <the enemy UG it is touching>.
- "Common sense" says to me yes, it is rolling a dice ergo it is fighting. I would be very much tempted to just go with this and say wheeling onto the flank therefore is not allowed. But:
- p146 I: 1. says that a supporting file is not itself engaged in a fight.
- p219 "Supporting file" glossary entry says that a supporting file is next to a file which is "fighting", which could be taken to imply that the supporting file itself isn't (although it does not say so definitively).
- p215 "Engaged bases" glossary entry distinguishes between bases "fighting", "providing necessary ranks", and "supporting files". This seems a stronger case for saying the answer to my question is no.
- p217 "Out of combat" glossary entry I'm now going to disregard. It's talking about UGs rather than files (although that comes to the same thing in Pacto), and "combat" is clearly its own concept deliberately introduced for a specific purpose.
Sorry, I may have missed the point of the question.
Supporting files are fighting so provisions of 9.3.M 2.1 cannot apply.
Richard
Excellent, ta very much!
That removes some potential cheesiness I thought I had spotted around charging and aligning, and who is currently the active player...which is always good.
Quote from: ShrubMiK on January 31, 2022, 09:35:24 AM
Excellent, ta very much!
That removes some potential cheesiness I thought I had spotted around charging and aligning, and who is currently the active player...which is always good.
Yes. If you are a supporting file you generally can only get on the flank by moving away for one turn into a flank charging position and then charging in the following turn. Obviously your opponent may be able to block such a move by moving up troops to protect the flank.
Richard
Me again 8)
I'm happy the above is how it is being played and presumably author intent (especially since it was the same philosophy in FoG iirc).
But I'm still not sure this is clear from the rules...
The update to the clarries says that a supporti8ng file is not "fighting" and this has implications for e.g. p132 section M.
Which seems to say that (if the supporting file is a different UG) it should be allowed to wheel onto the flank?
Further down we have a statement that a frontal combat cannot become a flank combat. "Combat" seems to refer to file-to-file contacts so this as worded would not prevent the supporting UG wheeling onto flank?
Quote from: ShrubMiK on February 22, 2022, 11:06:21 AM
Me again 8)
I'm happy the above is how it is being played and presumably author intent (especially since it was the same philosophy in FoG iirc).
But I'm still not sure this is clear from the rules...
The update to the clarries says that a supporti8ng file is not "fighting" and this has implications for e.g. p132 section M.
Which seems to say that (if the supporting file is a different UG) it should be allowed to wheel onto the flank?
Further down we have a statement that a frontal combat cannot become a flank combat. "Combat" seems to refer to file-to-file contacts so this as worded would not prevent the supporting UG wheeling onto flank?
All clear and as intended. if the supporting file is from a different UG i want them to be able to wheel onto the flank. tThat specific section are the two exceptions for turning a contact into a flank fight for Melee Combat.
The new clarification of what is defined as "fighting" may well mean that we have previously played the engaging in melee when already in contact part incorrectly - the note in the new aligning clarification was inserted precisely because of this in order to make players aware 8)