Hello All, I was hoping to get some advice from those in the know. I'll set the scene; a Tug of Persian Sparabara has a SuG of skirmishing bowmen in base to base contact to their front, they are charged by Hoplites 3 base widths distant from the Sparabara.
A) If they runaway, they fire down one colour and move their full distance but end facing away from the Hoplites but behind the Sparabara having been able to complete the full move (4 base widths - their depth {3 ranks} - Sparabara depth {2 ranks} = 2 and a half base widths. Correct?
B) The Sparabara can then fire as usual at the charging Hoplites. Correct?
If instead the decision was taken to Skirmish, even without a throw of a 1 or a 2 on the VMD the SuG would be unable to get all the way through the supporting troops but referring to 9.3 H 4.2 if there was room on the other side they could be moved all the way through.
C) The Sparabara can then fire as usual at the charging Hoplites. Correct?
If, however, they do throw a 1 on the VMD and therefore do not move at all and are therefore contacted by the charging Hoplites, they are destroyed and removed and the Hoplites proceed with their charge.
D) The Sparabara can then fire as usual at the charging Hoplites. Correct?
E) A unit with Integral Shooters instead would be able to claim their up one in all of the above circumstances. Correct?
I think all of this is as it should be but I would like to be sure, thanks for any and all assistance.
Some bits right and some bits possibly not.
Both Run Away and Skirmish moves have a VMD - you do not automatically move your full distance with a Run Away.
For both Run Away and Skirmish moves 9.3 H 4.2 applies and as long as they even partially enter another UG they pass through entirely as long as there is room as both Run Away and Skirmish are outcome moves.
Shooting is more complex and you appear to be making errors. It is an area a lot of players fall down on as it does require careful reading of the rules.
The key is the Path of Charge concept - this is what you actually shoot at in effect and you need to determine where this goes to work out who shoots at the chargers.
I have a picture I used recently when explaining this which may be useful.
(https://i.imgur.com/i3Kkb7d.jpg)
The picture shows some elephants charging at some enemy skirmishers with archers behind them. I have (crudely) indicated the Path of Charge by the red rectangle - note it does extend all the way to the front of the archers (it is crude). The skirmishers obviously have to evade.
Shooting is done "at" the Path of Charge before the skirmishers are moved.
The important thing here is that the Path of Charge goes past, but not through, the evading troops so the evaders create a "shadow" which cannot be shot at.
In the case in the picture all the archers have the Path of Charge within their shooting arc so could shoot at the elephants.
Now if the skirmishers in this picture had been in base contact with the archers I would say that the archers could not draw a line from both corners of the shooting base to the Path of Charge (which is in effect the target base in this case) and so could not shoot - in the picture there is a gap and so they could. (caveat, I have asked for clarification on this and will post here if it turns out I am wrong)
Nik,
Suppose there was an enemy shooter within 1 BW behind the Elephants facing the rear of the Elephants, are these new shooters also in the path, so eligible to shoot ?
Thx,
Martin
Quote from: Ambiorix on January 28, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Nik,
Suppose there was an enemy shooter within 1 BW behind the Elephants facing the rear of the Elephants, are these new shooters also in the path, so eligible to shoot ?
Thx,
Martin
Yes they would. As would any enemy shooters within 1 BW on the flank of the elephants and facing them.
Quote from: Ambiorix on January 28, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Nik,
Suppose there was an enemy shooter within 1 BW behind the Elephants facing the rear of the Elephants, are these new shooters also in the path, so eligible to shoot ?
Thx,
Martin
Can I mention the addition to the Clarifications that went in the last published version in October 2021:
"DOES THE "CHARGE PATH" OF AN UG INCLUDE THE INITIAL FOOTPRINT OF THE UG BEFORE IT IS MOVED? Yes it does. Thus the UG is part of the area used to decide who can shoot at the chargers. The diagrams on pages 120, 125, and 130 should have included the charging UG within the grey box indicating path of charge. "
It was highlighted in yellow along with all the other new additions.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 28, 2022, 06:59:32 AM
I have (crudely) indicated the Path of Charge...
Crude, yet effective. This was a very helpful post Nik.
I'd note that the bit about drawing lines from the shooter has led to quite a bit of discussion "in another place" and may well result in some clarification when those discussions come to a resolution.
Thank you for your detailed response. Firstly, my apologies re the VMD for a runaway, I do know that, my only excuse is a sudden brainsnap!
It has been made clear to me that if I have the rear bases of the SuG touching the front edge of the front bases of the TuG that there cane be no firing, and I think that that is fair enough. Probably a bit greedy to want two bites of the cherry regarding missile fire in those circumstances. I had sought to minimize their risk of being caught.
Regarding the illustration you have provided, I have one or two queries. If everything was in the same position except that there were 9 bases rather than 6, would this stop the TuG from firing? That is, is it the existance of the two long rectangles on either side of the SuG that allows firing?
Or is it the case that because there is a gap between the back of the SuG and the front of the TuG that gives a clear space that the path of the charging elephants will enter that allows the firing to take place?
From the illustration I am not quite sure why the middle file of archers in the TuG can fire.
I must express my appreciation for the time you devote to not just my questions, but to so many others. I find them very useful.
Regards
With the caveat that some things raised by this thread are under discussion ...
Quote from: Wizard of Oz on January 29, 2022, 09:30:32 AM
Regarding the illustration you have provided, I have one or two queries. If everything was in the same position except that there were 9 bases rather than 6, would this stop the TuG from firing? That is, is it the existance of the two long rectangles on either side of the SuG that allows firing?
It is the fact that the path of charge as illustrated by the long rectangles are within 1 BW of the archers that allows the shooting. If the skirmisher UG was larger and blocked off those rectangles then the archers would not have the opportunity to shoot.
Quote
From the illustration I am not quite sure why the middle file of archers in the TuG can fire.
The middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.
Quote
From the illustration I am not quite sure why the middle file of archers in the TuG can fire.
The middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.
[/quote]
Euh...oops, I thought the middle could shoot as it was in the arc of the (2)outer base(s) - that can shoot because in the path - but I presume 'within 1 BW' has the same effect. So in fact, to summarize and keep it simple, all can shoot IF facing within 1 BW of a path, no arcs involved. Correct?
Thanks again, I look forward to reading the results of the ongoing discussions.
QuoteThe middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.
I would aks you you you are sure of that as per 9.4, K.2 it seems that the middle one could not shoot .
Which might also be a problem for the 2 other bases as they do not have a complete line of sight at the beginning of the charge . I suppose that is the discussion you have . IMO none of the bowmen in your exemple should shoot as per the above mentionned paragraph ( pg 130 )
Quote from: badhabum on January 29, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
QuoteThe middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.
I would aks you you you are sure of that as per 9.4, K.2 it seems that the middle one could not shoot .
Which might also be a problem for the 2 other bases as they do not have a complete line of sight at the beginning of the charge . I suppose that is the discussion you have . IMO none of the bowmen in your exemple should shoot as per the above mentionned paragraph ( pg 130 )
Actually, according to page 130 they do shoot. The discussion is whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) applies in the charge phase and whether it refers to the target base before it has been moved.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 29, 2022, 12:47:56 PM
The discussion is whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) applies in the charge phase and whether it refers to the target base before it has been moved.
Feel free to comment on this ;D
Well...the shooting is actually taken to occur at 1BW, so you shouldn't need to have line of fire or even visibility of the starting position.
It does feel perhaps wrong that you should have to face two lots of shooting on the way in...was it historical for shooters to have skirmishers operating in front of them in this fashion? I'm not sure it was.
A compromise might be that if line of fire is not maintained throughout the charge, downgrade by one dice colour?
We're not looking for new mechanisms - whilst intellectually interesting to ponder, the question we are looking at is that stated by Richard and we're sticking to that :D
The point "It does feel perhaps wrong that you should have to face two lots of shooting on the way in...was it historical for shooters to have skirmishers operating in front of them in this fashion? I'm not sure it was." is a pertinent one.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 29, 2022, 12:47:56 PM
Quote from: badhabum on January 29, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
QuoteThe middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.
I would aks you you you are sure of that as per 9.4, K.2 it seems that the middle one could not shoot .
Which might also be a problem for the 2 other bases as they do not have a complete line of sight at the beginning of the charge . I suppose that is the discussion you have . IMO none of the bowmen in your exemple should shoot as per the above mentionned paragraph ( pg 130 )
Actually, according to page 130 they do shoot. The discussion is whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) applies in the charge phase and whether it refers to the target base before it has been moved.
Richard
So in the case of the above picture, even if the bases do not conform to the fact that both corners should see the target in order to shoot ( one concept ) , they may shoot, because at the beginning of the charge they see even only partially , the charger.
Now what about the center base ?
And what would change if the SK bases did touch the bowmen because I do not see a difference if they did . They still would be in the front of the UG but Nik seems to say it would be different or did I misunderstand ?
Now IMO, none of the bowmen could shoot because at the beginning of the charge, none of them had the opportunity to have a correct LOS and the SK did pass trough them but I can understand the other logic .
And frankly I see no difference between the SK being a few millimeters away from the bow or in contact with them.
If the bowmen are allowed to shoot in this case this will be the source of new tactics, outting some SK to the front of the bowmen of other shooters who will shoot once again ..interesting new concept . What did the spartans say at Thermopylae ?
I can assure you that per the picture all the archers can shoot by the rules and this is what is intended (as Si has confirmed in the discussions between RJC, myself and him on this to date).
However, because of potentially undesirable effects the question we are looking at is, as Richard mentioned earlier, whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) should apply - which would bring it to what you thought the rules were anyway ;D
For what it is worth, my premise for my initial question was that the charging unit, after the SuG had evaded out of the way, would be at some stage within one base width and directly ahead of the unit being charged. At some point the charging unit is directly ahead, within one base width and the shooting file can ''draw an uninterrupted line to some part of the target base without passing through friends". (page 156)
On page 130, K1. and K2. are what raised questions.
K1. ''Files can shoot at chargers if the path of charge passes within 1BW and ahead of them,''.
K2. ''i.e. if you put foot skirmishers in front of a TuG of bowmen and they are charged, then the skirmishers will shoot. but the TuG behind will not.''
To be fair, the extract from K2 is pretty clear cut, but so is K1 and the bit from page 156. Also, what about mounted skirmishers in front of bow armed cavalry etc?
Also, for what it is worth, I think that skirmishers are skirmishers whose job it was to skirmish in front of the main battle line, not just in front of those armed in a particular way, I think they used their weapons differently.
This may, however, not work at a game level, and these are such good rules it would be a shame to upset that balance in some way that was unnecessary.
Regards,
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 29, 2022, 05:06:00 PM
I can assure you that per the picture all the archers can shoot by the rules and this is what is intended (as Si has confirmed in the discussions between RJC, myself and him on this to date).
However, because of potentially undesirable effects the question we are looking at is, as Richard mentioned earlier, whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) should apply - which would bring it to what you thought the rules were anyway ;D
But why can they shoot ?
If I read pg 130 : if you put foot skirmishers to the front of a TUG of bowmen and they are charged, then the skirmishers will shoot, but the TUG behind will not.
So you keep telling us that the bowmen may shoot but the written rule says no !
So the basic question is WHY ?
Because the actual rule is that you can shoot if the path of charge comes within 1 BW.
You are mistaking the "fluff" explanation with the actual rule - it is an example and a generalisation, and what actually happens in a game will depend on the specific circumstances of where the units actually are and where the path of charge goes.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 30, 2022, 10:48:43 AM
Because the actual rule is that you can shoot if the path of charge comes within 1 BW.
You are mistaking the "fluff" explanation with the actual rule - it is an example and a generalisation, and what actually happens in a game will depend on the specific circumstances of where the units actually are and where the path of charge goes.
So if you charge bow infantry skirmishers who are in front of a bow armed infantry TuG you will be shot twice if you come within 1BW?
If I read this discussion correctly, it seems to be about whether to apply page 130 k2 or page 156 d2, correct?
I would say this is decided on page 155 b2: 156 d2 applies...
Quote from: rayfredjohn on January 30, 2022, 10:52:30 AM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 30, 2022, 10:48:43 AM
Because the actual rule is that you can shoot if the path of charge comes within 1 BW.
You are mistaking the "fluff" explanation with the actual rule - it is an example and a generalisation, and what actually happens in a game will depend on the specific circumstances of where the units actually are and where the path of charge goes.
So if you charge bow infantry skirmishers who are in front of a bow armed infantry TuG you will be shot twice if you come within 1BW?
If the
path of charge goes within 1 BW.
Its all about the path of charge.
Quote from: Cavillarius on January 30, 2022, 11:06:57 AM
If I read this discussion correctly, it seems to be about whether to apply page 130 k2 or page 156 d2, correct?
I would say this is decided on page 155 b2: 156 d2 applies...
Good grief, how on earth have we missed that - hiding in plain sight :o :P ???
Many thanks for pointing it out, and that we need to get better glasses 8)
I think it would then follow that measuring lines to the target base would be done at 1 BW which is where all shooting at chargers is taken to happen - and you would measure to the path of charge.
In which case, in the picture I posted the archers may not be able to shoot if the skirmishers are blocking the lines drawn; the middle one would definitely not be able to the other.
In which case, in the picture I posted the archers may not be able to shoot if the skirmishers are blocking the lines drawn; the middle one would definitely not be able to the other.
[/quote]
So are you implying the 2 outer Archers can still shoot in your example ? Because thx to Cavillarius input they do not comply within 1BW of the path with D2 of p156.
No I said they "may not be able to shoot". I could not be arsed to go back and actually measure the picture.
They are obviously within 1 BW of the path of charge (why do you think they are not?) but I doubt the required lines can be drawn from their front corners to the path of charge at the point the path of charge is at 1 BW (i.e. where shooting at chargers is deemed to take place).
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 30, 2022, 07:18:09 PM
but I doubt the required lines can be drawn from their front corners to the path of charge at the point the path of charge is at 1 BW (i.e. where shooting at chargers is deemed to take place).
Exactly, as on the photo they cannot draw these lines, none of the archers can shoot, hence my question to be sure all is clear now :).
But does 156 D2 not support the idea that the rear TuG of Sparabara will have an uninterrupted view of the path of charge of the charging Hoplites from the initial question when the SuG has evaded or run away through them and the Sparabara will therefore be able to shoot?
I think you are forgetting the order things are done in the turn sequence.
Shooting at chargers is done before any bases are moved including those of troops running away or skirmishing. This is why the path of charge mechanism is so important.
The rule seems clear enough now. I think :)
The result may be counter-intuitive though - if the skirmishers start further forward, the shooters can shoot?
Hopefully ;D
I think we'll probably add something to the clarries on the measuring to the charge of path when shooting at chargers which will hopefully help as well.
Quote from: ShrubMiK on January 31, 2022, 09:41:26 AM
The rule seems clear enough now. I think :)
The result may be counter-intuitive though - if the skirmishers start further forward, the shooters can shoot?
You may be able to push back the skirmishers in the turn before charging, thus preventing the potential to shoot with both units.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 31, 2022, 10:05:25 AM
Hopefully ;D
I think we'll probably add something to the clarries on the measuring to the charge of path when shooting at chargers which will hopefully help as well.
I had to ask my friend Callivarius as he is much better than I to write things in an understandable way ;D
Thanks for all this, I look forward to the official Clarification just so I can completely get my head around it.