Two questions about the Ming list
the light guns special rule...
"SPECIAL RULE - LIGHT GUNS. Instead of being deployed separately, light guns may be attached to a drilled infantry TuG. Add "Experienced-Light Artillery" shooting to the
normal characteristics of one base of the TuG, and use a lgiht gun base for this. Note that this base is still an infantry base not an artillery base. The TuG moves at BWg speeds
(but may double move) and with any move the TuG may abandon the light guns, in which case replace the artillery base with a normal base and revert to infantry speeds for
movement thereafter. Both artillery and bow or crossbow can shoot. "
Does this mean that if you have a bow base upgraded to be the light gun it can fire twice, once as a bow and once as artillery? If so how does that work with the points and on the spreadsheet?
If not, does that mean that the poor second row bowman does not get to shoot?
and...
why are the artillery unskilled, but the light guns are experienced?
in fact why are all the chinese gunpowder artillery unksilled?
(https://i.imgur.com/hGW95Sr.gif)
And just to prove Jim Davis recycles (his punchlines)
(https://i.imgur.com/IXz7pMb.gif)
The artillery is in addition to the bow shooting . So you get all the bow shots + the artillery
so how are they pointed? do they get their bow shooting for free?
You pay for the artillery base .. but it's just a marker like the integral Roman shooters.
Basically it looks like the army builder cannot really deal with this oddity.
A base in the unit needs to, somehow, be (for e.g.) Drilled Loose, Average, Protected, Experienced Crossbow, Experienced Light Artillery - which cannot be done.
If you pay for an artillery base (I think) it has to be entered into the army builder in the skirmisher section as the TUG secton doesn't deal with artillery (despite it being on the drop down under Type) and, therefore, costs more than just adding the artillery shooting characteristics to a base in the TUG section as you would with the Roman integral light artillery.
Also Paul's other questions:
Quotewhy are the artillery unskilled, but the light guns are experienced?
in fact why are all the chinese gunpowder artillery unksilled?
Yes it is hard to see anyone willingly fielding unskilled artillery. It's not like other artillery is exactly dominating the tabletops. I suppose you could wait for someone to charge them so you claim your KAB tests but its hard to see why they ever would given your fire at range will be doing nothing to them.
I find it hard to believe that Chinese artillery was that much worse than all other ancient/medieval artillery.
Martin
In terms of the army builder I would guess they get the xbow for free if they are xbow and artillery?
hmmm
There is a work around. IF you have the 7th base - the optional 2HCC one - then you give them the Experienced Light Artillery capability in the army builder, but count one of the missilemen bases as having it. Gets you the right points at least.
but why would you do that when you can get them cheap instead
and not have a double utility hit if that base dies
The light artillery is added to a drilled infantry TuG base without missile weapons. You cannot add it to a crossbow or archer unit.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 26, 2019, 01:38:54 PM
The light artillery is added to a drilled infantry TuG base without missile weapons. You cannot add it to a crossbow or archer unit.
Richard
In which case I'd suggest that the list note that Paul quoted at the start of this topic doesn't clearly say that and, indeed, can be read as you can have a base with multiple shooting capabilities (as was stated by Administrator).
If the artillery shooting can only be added to a base without missile weapons can it be added to a crosbow/bow unit that has and anti-cavalry squad base by giving the latter the capability?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on March 26, 2019, 02:01:55 PM
If the artillery shooting can only be added to a base without missile weapons can it be added to a crosbow/bow unit that has and anti-cavalry squad base by giving the latter the capability?
I would say yes, because that is my cunning plan! sounds like there are going to be a lot of Ming armies at Roll Call!
so in reality its 'a unit of spearmen and swordsmen' can add a gun
as this is the only drilled foot unit without shooting available in the list. and only one of those at max
"Both artillery and bow or crossbow can shoot"
why does that line exist if units with missile weapons cant have the upgrade?
Quote from: DracoStandard on March 28, 2019, 05:55:55 AM
"Both artillery and bow or crossbow can shoot"
why does that line exist if units with missile weapons cant have the upgrade?
Hmmm. It didn't get thought through.
Richard
How about:
"SPECIAL RULE - LIGHT GUNS. Instead of being deployed separately, light guns may be attached to a drilled infantry TuG. Add "Experienced-Light Artillery" (instead of Bow/Crossbow) shooting to the
normal characteristics of one base of the TuG, and use a lgiht gun base for this. Note that this base is still an infantry base not an artillery base. The TuG moves at BWg speeds
(but may double move) and with any move the TuG may abandon the light guns, in which case replace the artillery base with a normal base and revert to infantry speeds for
movement thereafter. Both artillery and bow or crossbow can shoot. "
So in the army builder, replace the bow/crossbow with Light Artillery in the shooting column for one base.
Richard
ok
that one base (replacing an xbow with light art)
has another xbow behind it
does that file fire as 1 base of artillery
or
1 base of artillery and 1 base of xbow
or
1 base of artillery and 2 bases of xbow
"Both artillery and bow or crossbow can shoot" implies the third option
...and how about handgunners?
The more I look at it , the wronger it is
the embedded guns cost an extra 60 points a base, but as a stand alone base they cost 116
normally an extra base is worth while, but as artillery are skirmishers and evaporate on contact with any other troops, do not count for break point, and have horrible movement restrictions, one or other of those points values is horribly wrong.
Quote from: DracoStandard on March 28, 2019, 07:54:57 AM
ok
that one base (replacing an xbow with light art)
has another xbow behind it
does that file fire as 1 base of artillery
or
1 base of artillery and 1 base of xbow
or
1 base of artillery and 2 bases of xbow
"Both artillery and bow or crossbow can shoot" implies the third option
I base of Artillery, 2 bases of crossbow.
Quote from: DracoStandard on March 28, 2019, 10:30:07 AM
The more I look at it , the wronger it is
the embedded guns cost an extra 60 points a base, but as a stand alone base they cost 116
normally an extra base is worth while, but as artillery are skirmishers and evaporate on contact with any other troops, do not count for break point, and have horrible movement restrictions, one or other of those points values is horribly wrong.
The cost of 60 pts for the Light Gun may be argued as quite good value, but it doesn't count as an additional base and gives you limited extra benefit for a big move restriction on the entire TuG.
The stand alone cost I would say is on the high side in the context of other skirmishers. There won't be a mad rush to take them but in the overall scheme of MeG it isn't a huge issue as far as I can see.
Live with it!
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 28, 2019, 10:40:55 AM
Quote from: DracoStandard on March 28, 2019, 07:54:57 AM
ok
that one base (replacing an xbow with light art)
has another xbow behind it
does that file fire as 1 base of artillery
or
1 base of artillery and 1 base of xbow
or
1 base of artillery and 2 bases of xbow
"Both artillery and bow or crossbow can shoot" implies the third option
I base of Artillery, 2 bases of crossbow.
Doesn't that mean that whilst one base is shooting as both Artillery and Bow/Crossbow it is only paying the points for the Artillery shooting capability so getting the Crossbow for free?
I thought it was quite simple - there are four units that can have an anticavalry squad and there are four light guns. If each anti-cav base has an art everything matches up. The sentence about shooting then just means the art and the bases behind both shoot. I have now revealed my cunning (and I hope completely legal!) plan
Dave P
I'm pretty sure more that 4 units can have anti-cavalry squads - after all, there are 8 bases of these available ;D
what if i add the gun to a unit of hand gunners? Do they get hand gunner for free? can rear ranks fire?
any foot can the anti cav boys (except tribal aux)
OK there are up to four that I would consider adding the anti-cav plus gun to - leave me some shreds of a secret plan!
Quote from: daveparish on March 28, 2019, 12:44:26 PM
OK there are up to four that I would consider adding the anti-cav plus gun to - leave me some shreds of a secret plan!
Got to be a better plan than mine - which is basically see what lead turns up in time to get an army sorted ... :p
my army is all about the handgunners
which i still do not have
arghh
Aah well that makes me Old Ming because I've had the army for years! Actually my cunning plan is just to get every gimmick on the table I can - I may not win much but I will have fun!
So the only question left (I think) is can Artillery and handgunners in the same file both fire (it specifies bow and crossbow)?
my original assumption was yes, but the more i read the notes the more messy it gets...
I may have to rearrange some of my units
Logically speaking if bow and crossbow can shoot from behind Art I don't see why Handgunners can't - but I'm not sure that logic would survive an umpire's ruling!
I think logic founders upon the harsh realities of the list of ming ness
the original intention was the attached artillery would just be a 'marker' rather than a 'base' so that all bases in the TuG would function as they would do normally. Think of the regimental gun in FoG:R ... So that is RAI if not RAW
whether that has been lost in translation along the way remains to be see.
I am suggesting the note should now read
"SPECIAL RULE - LIGHT GUNS. Instead of being deployed separately, light guns may be attached to a drilled infantry TuG. In the army builder, add or replace with "Experienced-Light Artillery" shooting to the normal characteristics of one base of the TuG, and use a light gun base for this. Note that this base is still an infantry base not an artillery base. The TuG moves at BWg speeds (but may double move) and with any move the TuG may abandon the light guns, in which case replace the artillery base with a normal base and revert to infantry speeds for movement thereafter. Both artillery and bow, handgun or crossbow can shoot - the artillery shoots as "unskilled". The rule for charging guns (KaB test) will apply if this base is charged. This special rule should be explained to opponents as soon as the first TuG of this type is deployed."
Why downgrade the artillery now? I assumed the original reason for Experienced was that there were light guns all along the units frontage (which is historical I believe) and that rather than give a gun per base you represented this with one experienced gun. Was that the original intention -and has it changed?
Actually I'm even more confused - are you saying to take an artillery base? So a unit of six would become a unit of seven bases? (eight if I also add an anticavalry squad)
OK read it again and I don't think you mean to take an extra base - just give an infantry base a Light Artillery shooting capability (as it was all along in the list). Still leaves the question of why change the artillery grade now.
You put them into the army builder as experienced so it adds an appropriate points cost. They shoot as Unskilled otherwise they would be too effective (bear in mind you are getting the potential benefits of extra slows and the KAB test if the base is charged). It is an optional feature, if you don't like it you don't have to use them...
An average drilled loose experienced crossbowmen is 92 points. If you upgrade them with a light gun they become 125 points. For the 33 pts it seems quite a good bonus... (The cost is 40 pts if you upgrade an archer, 50 points if you upgrade a handgunner).
Obviously the drawback is that the infantry are slowed to 2 BW in open and 1 BW in rough and would have to drop the light guns to enter difficult going.
I am always concerned about making special rules too effective so that they become a must have.
Richard
QuoteThey shoot as Unskilled otherwise they would be too effective (bear in mind you are getting the potential benefits of extra slows and the KAB test if the base is charged).
Lots of armies can have experienced artillery. Why is it 'too effective' for the Ming? I've used artillery in a few armies, doesn't seem that awesome.
Martin
Quote from: martymagnificent on April 01, 2019, 09:07:19 PM
QuoteThey shoot as Unskilled otherwise they would be too effective (bear in mind you are getting the potential benefits of extra slows and the KAB test if the base is charged).
Lots of armies can have experienced artillery. Why is it 'too effective' for the Ming? I've used artillery in a few armies, doesn't seem that awesome.
Martin
Because it is additional shooting.
Richard
The MeG Meister has come up with a better solution
"SPECIAL RULE - LIGHT GUNS. Instead of being deployed separately, light guns may be attached to any drilled infantry TuG. In the army builder, insert "Experienced-Light Artillery" shooting in the firing section of one shooting base of the TuG, and use a light gun base for this. Note that this base is still an infantry base not an artillery base. The TuG moves at BWg speeds (but may double move) and with any move the TuG may abandon the light guns, in which case replace the artillery base with a normal infantry base that matches the rest of the TuG, and revert to infantry speeds for movement thereafter. Note that a file may only fire once and the file with the artillery must choose whether to fire the artillery or to fire any Bow, Crossbow or Firearm in that file instead. The rule for charging guns (KaB test) will apply if the base with light guns is charged – so it must be in the front rank to get this benefit. This special rule should be explained to opponents as soon as the first TuG of this type is deployed."
So basically you can replace a handgunner, archer or crossbowmen with a light gun. You can then choose to shoot the file as Artillery instead.
Thanks! This makes a lot of sense. Though my cunning plan is looking even less cunning now!
I think what these guns looked like historically was a lot of one and two man weapons, sometimes not that much bigger than handguns, scattered across the frontage of the unit. So each one would be taking up the space that could be occupied by bowmen etc - so you shouldn't be getting an extra firing dice just changing the firing type.
So following the logic...
If an archer base is behind a base that has artillery attached - and the front base shoots as if artillery, then the second rank archer base then suffers a downgrade for shooting in one rank?
Lance.
That might be logical but it's not what Simon said - the file has to chose to fire with one type or the other. It is a pragmatic solution, I think, so you might want to ignore my post-hoc rationalisation if it complicate things!
I'm still more troubled by them being unskilled when in separate artillery units. How bad do you have to be to be worse than European Medieval artillery (who are all experienced)?
Martin
They are now experienced ... see above ...
.... but you have to choose which to shoot in the file.
It is a little more than pragmatic solution.
A design intent is that a file only shoots once so it fits with that.
Don't want 4 deep longbow claiming they can shoot twice per file do we ....
And keeps it simpler.
RJC worry about being too good is then solved by not having both artillery and bw/xbw shooting in the same file.
Si
I think Martymagnificent's point is separate from the artillery added to an infantry unit question. In the Ming list stand-alone artillery is unskilled - which is strange when they come from the land that invented gunpowder. A list issue for the next revision?
A good solution
Dave - a cunning Ming tastic plan...
upgrade the anti cav to a gun, then put it in a file on its own
...as at least one of us is taking Ming to Rollcall...is this a formal clarification?
The formal clarification is on the List Clarifications section of the forum.
Richard
Quote from: DracoStandard on April 03, 2019, 09:40:10 PM
A good solution
Dave - a cunning Ming tastic plan...
upgrade the anti cav to a gun, then put it in a file on its own
Well it says upgrade a shooting base - so I don't think you can upgrade the anticav squads (... all the cunning Ming plans are biting the dust, one by one!
...and now cant be added to the spearmen or dare to die troops
bugger
my list for next weekend is now horribly illegal ...
Bit of thread necromancy
So Ming and Yuan artillery is still unskilled (ie largely useless). Is there some pressing historical reason why this artillery has to be even worse than European Medieval Bombard/Cannon, which all get to be experienced?
Martin
I'm also surprised by the Handgunners being close. Very unusual for shooters in MeG.
Martin
I have added an errata entry allowing Ming and Yuan artillery to be Experienced. I think this change was overlooked when making the 2020 changes.
Richard
Thanks.
Martin
Sorry for thread necromancy but thought might serve as a reminder.
In the new lists the Ming artillery still seems to be unskilled. Assume an error.
Thanks
Martin
Thanks Martin.
Yes this was my oversight. I'll set up the errata...
Apologies to anyone using Chinese cannon!
Richard
Thank you,
I do occasionally roll out my models for them although I think they will see the table more in ReG
Martin