Hi all and Happy New Year.
I need help from the hivemind to ensure I have interpreted the move through skirmishers and displacement rule correctly. The situation is as follows:-
A block of 2 UG's of 6 bases Drilled Infantry, in two files and three bases deep, have a 9 base UG of Javelin skirmishers in contact with their rear.
The two UG's are in melee contact with a UG of 8 bases.
The Javelin skirmishers are 1.5 BW from Red UG's therefore within shooting range but obviously blocked by friendly troops.
During step 5.4 the Blue troops play a Break Off move (taking KaB's) and move through the skirmishers 2 BW, which means the front bases of the Drilled Infantry don't clear the front edge of the Skirmishers.
Based on my interpretation of rule H 3.1, 3.2 and universal rule 16, which only talks about range not line of sight, The break off move would be allowed as the Skirmishers started within range of the Red Troops therefore where not displaced into range only closer but now visable to the Red Troops ending up half a base width from the Red Block of Troops and the Blue UG's behind.
I tried to include images however the system would'nt let me add them.
Thanks
Ron
The displacement rule seems quite clear 'does not put it into shooting range and arc of enemy troops it could not previously shoot at.'
you couldnt shoot at them and now you can so in my opinion its not a legal move.
Regards
Matt
First, I don't see how universal 16 applies - 9.3.H.2 should suffice and there is no need to invoke UR16.
Second, aren't you displacing the SuG "back to behind" the TuG that is falling back, so that the SuG remains to the rear of the TuG and even farther away from the enemy units - and still blocked by the original friendly TuG as well? I presume "behind" refers to the front/rear of the TuG, and not to its direction of movement.
Finally, for posting images, you may have seen https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1587.0 I prefer inline images, but to do so you must first upload them to an external site. I use imgur.com which is free. My notes read:
- Upload files to imgur.com
- In imgur, copy over as BBCode, original size.
Post in this format - BUT REMOVE SPACES (spaces added to display on forum posting): [ img ]https://i.imgur.com/ABCxxx.tif[ / img ]
Tarnowski1, you are incorrect the skirmishers being directly behind the Blue infantry and touching the rear bases of the UG are 1.5 BW from the Red infantry and so "In Range and within shooting range" they just have no LOS due to the friendly infantry so it meets the criteria set out in 1.1 & 1.2 the rules purely discuss range.
therefore when the blue infantry break off and move through the skirmishers the red troops are now in LOS.
Francis Small, No the Skirmishers are not moving back, they are being moved through and displaced forward 1BW to allow the Blue troops complete their 2BW break off move
RED,RED,RED
BLUE, BLUE
SKIRMISH
Break off move occures
RED,RED,RED
(1/2 BW gap)
SKIRMISH
BLUE, BLUE
Quote from: Bombardier on January 06, 2022, 09:33:49 AM
Tarnowski1, you are incorrect the skirmishers being directly behind the Blue infantry and touching the rear bases of the UG are 1.5 BW from the Red infantry and so "In Range and within shooting range" they just have no LOS due to the friendly infantry so it meets the criteria set out in 1.1 & 1.2 the rules purely discuss range.
therefore when the blue infantry break off and move through the skirmishers the red troops are now in LOS.
Francis Small, No the Skirmishers are not moving back, they are being moved through and displaced forward 1BW to allow the Blue troops complete their 2BW break off move
RED,RED,RED
BLUE, BLUE
SKIRMISH
Break off move occures
RED,RED,RED
(1/2 BW gap)
SKIRMISH
BLUE, BLUE
Hi, 'of enemy troops it could not previously shoot at.' you couldnt previously shoot at them and after the displacement you can. It has now put them in range, in arc and of an enemy they couldnt shoot at previously.
Quote from: tarnowski1 on January 06, 2022, 10:34:08 AM
Hi, 'of enemy troops it could not previously shoot at.' you couldnt previously shoot at them and after the displacement you can. It has now put them in range, in arc and of an enemy they couldnt shoot at previously.
I concur. IMO it clearly the intention that displacement cannot allow SUGs to shoot where they previously had not been able to and if asked to rule I would not allow something that allowed them to.
So what is the answer ?
May the heavies disengage and how ?
Correct me if need be :
To my understanding a breaking off unit must go backwards, a minimum of 2 MU, straight back ( but may use universal 1/2 base shift )
It cannot push back enemy SUGS as we are not in the movement phase
Now as it is a prompted action it may push back or push aside a friendly SUG ( displace it )
It may move trough foot friendly SUGs but may not push them to make place if it would put them in shooting range of an enemy TUG
But K 1.1 ( pg 114 ) states that by displacing friends you may not put them into shooting range and arc of enemy troops it could not previously shoot.
So is it the range that counts or the ability to shoot at ! It is possible to imagine the heavies going trough the lights that assume once again a SK stance .
So a clear answer might be need for that case
Well, FWIW, I think that the heavies disengage and move back 2BW. Since they do not clear the skirmishers, the skirmishers are displaced backwards ending behind the heavies. Again, you are invoking rule 9.3.H.3.2 (I guess I misstated the rule earlier). Although you are not technically pushing the skirmishers back to remain behind you, that ends up being the effect. I would go with that until some comes up with chapter and verse about why it isn't so. ;)
Why should the SUG not be pushed slightly forward ?
It is already in shooting range isn't it
Quote from: Bombardier on January 05, 2022, 09:17:02 AM
Hi all and Happy New Year.
Oh a bit of a situation you set up there...
Quote from: BombardierI need help from the hive mind to ensure I have interpreted the move through skirmishers and displacement rule correctly. The situation is as follows:-
A block of 2 UG's of 6 bases Drilled Infantry, in two files and three bases deep, have a 9 base UG of Javelin skirmishers in contact with their rear.
The two UG's are in melee contact with a UG of 8 bases.
The Javelin skirmishers are 1.5 BW from Red UG's therefore within shooting range but obviously blocked by friendly troops.
Ok got it think
Quote from: Bombardier
During step 5.4 the Blue troops play a Break Off move (taking KaB's) and move through the skirmishers 2 BW, which means the front bases of the Drilled Infantry don't clear the front edge of the Skirmishers.
Indeed they do not have distance to pass through. So that method is out. So the only alternative is if allowed to displace the SuG.
Based on my interpretation of rule H 3.1, 3.2 and universal rule 16, which only talks about range not line of sight, The break off move would be allowed as the Skirmishers started within range of the Red Troops therefore where not displaced into range only closer but now visable to the Red Troops ending up half a base width from the Red Block of Troops and the Blue UG's behind.
Not quite reading it accurately there. They do come in range of enemy they could not previsouyl shoot at. It's the latter bit that is the key. The fact they started in range isn't mentioned anywhere for a reason.
So that break off could not happen.
Quote from: BombardierI tried to include images however the system would'nt let me add them.
Thanks
Ron
The difficulty in interpretation is:
'does not put it into shooting range and arc of enemy troops it could not previously shoot at.'
The skirmishers were already in shooting range and arc of those enemy troops. They couldn't shoot because the shot was blocked by friends. So the displacement has not put them into shooting range and arc.
The wording needs to be something like:
'does not enable it to shoot at enemy troops it could not previously shoot at.'
which seems to be what was actually intended.