Is this true?
(https://i.postimg.cc/qzwqLz73/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/qzwqLz73)
No.
In the first diagram...
In charge combat (indeed any combat) where two files are fighting one on the same edge, then the player who has the two files can choose which of the two files fights. The other may be a supporting file. It doesn't matter who charges who or which player is active. Note that the active player may have chosen to align at 2.7, 4.2 or 5.1 in the turn sequence.
In the second diagram...
I am assuming grey is a single base. Because both are treated as frontal contact, the rule above applies. If 2 contacts a separate base, then both can fight. Flank contacts that are treated as frontal contacts remain frontal contacts. Again, the players could choose to align (frontally) at the appropriate point in the turn sequence.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 04, 2022, 04:20:51 PM
In the second diagram...
I am assuming grey is a single base. Because both are treated as frontal contact, the rule above applies.
Richard
yet the rules for 2 bases contacting 1 refer to base edges not just the base, so in the 2nd diagram there is no edge with two bases in contact, it may be a side edge counting as frontal combat but its still a distinct edge
What if before the charge file1 was in the front zone and file2 was in the flank zone?
I believe everything said for the 1st case by the OP is correct - and Richard didn't contradict anything stated. As for the 2nd case...
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 04, 2022, 04:20:51 PM
In the second diagram...
I am assuming grey is a single base. Because both are treated as frontal contact, the rule above applies. If 2 contacts a separate base, then both can fight. Flank contacts that are treated as frontal contacts remain frontal contacts. Again, the players could choose to align (frontally) at the appropriate point in the turn sequence.
Richard
I would have agreed with Richard because that's what I thought, but then I read the rule.
Quote
p. 150, K 1.4:
A single base may be attacked a maximum of once on each of its edges - so a base contacting multiple bases on a flank will only be attacked by one of them...
I believe that Richard's position is that to be attacked both frontally and on the flank, the flank attack must qualify as a flank attack and not simply be another flank attack. But a plain reading of the rules as written would seem to more strongly support the original claim that both could fight if they contact different edges.
Quote from: Francis Small on January 04, 2022, 08:21:59 PM
But a plain reading of the rules as written would seem to more strongly support the original claim that both could fight if they contact different edges.
But the problem is that they don't...
If you look at it strictly from the geometrical point of view then the whole situation goes absurd, because in fact file1 contacts the corner and file2 contacts the side edge.
So either both contact the side edge while file1 additionally contacts the front or none of them contacts the front edge (depending on whether you assume that the corner belongs to the edge or not).
I doubt that the author's intention was to dive into such deliberations. ;)
I understand that the intention was that you fight against the edge respective to the zone in which you started the charge.
If so, then you could probably fight with both files, provided that you arranged the whole case so they started the charge in different zones.
Quote from: AjojMajoj on January 04, 2022, 08:49:39 PM
I understand that the intention was that you fight against the edge respective to the zone in which you started the charge.
If so, then you could probably fight with both files, provided that you arranged the whole case so they started the charge in different zones.
So, in the following melee situation where unit B1 does
not qualify for a flank bonus but is instead fighting frontally, who gets to fight?
(https://i.imgur.com/Md2Zy4O.png)
I
think what you are saying was that you can either have A1 fight supported by A2
or have B1 fight supported by B2 - but not both because they are both fighting frontally - is this correct?
Furthermore, if B1
did qualify as a flank attack, then everyone could attack: A1 frontally supported by A2, and B1 with the flank bonus supported by B2.
Note: I have heard that A2 can't fight as a supporting file because B1 is in the way/takes its place, but I can't see any justification for this in the rules - any comments on this would be helpful.
@Francis are you sure such situation is even possible?
B cannot qualify as frontal combat and find itself in such position without aligning.
I might be wrong but I think you can't align to the enemy's side edge if you did not start the charge in his flank zone.
Are you going to make me produce another diagram??? ;)
Imagine that UG B is starting to the right and slightly higher (up) than its ending position in the diagram. It charges to the left into red, but shifts down (no more than 1/2 BW) to avoid A, ending in contact already aligned. Even if B1 didn't end up aligned, I don't know of any rule preventing B1 from aligning to red's flank even if it doesn't qualify as a flank bonus.
Page 137 point 8. Side edge contacts that were frontal charges may only align into frontal supporting file positions, not flank positions. So B1 cannot align and therefore your diagram isn't valid.
With regard to the query about whether A2 can be a supporting file (assume B1 is a flank charge): In the past as an Umpire I have ruled that A2 cannot be a supporting file but I must admit the wording of the rules does allow A2 to be a supporting file.
Richard
Quote from: AjojMajoj on January 06, 2022, 12:52:59 AM
@Francis are you sure such situation is even possible?
B cannot qualify as frontal combat and find itself in such position without aligning.
I might be wrong but I think you can't align to the enemy's side edge if you did not start the charge in his flank zone.
you wouldnt need to align, you could wheel 90 degrees in the charge phase, assuming you started on the line of the enemy tug's front edge and charge straight into the flank and still count as a fornatl contact and be completely aligned.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 04, 2022, 04:20:51 PM
No.
In the first diagram...
In charge combat (indeed any combat) where two files are fighting one on the same edge, then the player who has the two files can choose which of the two files fights. The other may be a supporting file. It doesn't matter who charges who or which player is active. Note that the active player may have chosen to align at 2.7, 4.2 or 5.1 in the turn sequence.
In the second diagram...
I am assuming grey is a single base. Because both are treated as frontal contact, the rule above applies. If 2 contacts a separate base, then both can fight. Flank contacts that are treated as frontal contacts remain frontal contacts. Again, the players could choose to align (frontally) at the appropriate point in the turn sequence.
Richard
Just to add to this, and support Richard's statement, the rules state that "If a file contacts a flank edge without qualifying for a flank bonus it simply fights as if contacting frontally." - so in this case you have 2 bases contacting frontally ("contacting" being important) hence the rule about the player with 2 bases in contact choosing which fights applies. IMO the intention is clear and it removes options to make cheesy charge moves at angles to get multiple fights against a base that can only fight back once.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 06, 2022, 08:45:39 AM
With regard to the query about whether A2 can be a supporting file (assume B1 is a flank charge): In the past as an Umpire I have ruled that A2 cannot be a supporting file but I must admit the wording of the rules does allow A2 to be a supporting file.
It is only fairly recently I realised this as well :o
OK, trying to put a bow on this. Thanks for everyone's input.
Here's the diagram again:
(https://i.imgur.com/Md2Zy4O.png)
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 06, 2022, 08:45:39 AM
Page 137 point 8. Side edge contacts that were frontal charges may only align into frontal supporting file positions, not flank positions. So B1 cannot align and therefore your diagram isn't valid.
B1 has shifted/moved but not aligned into contact, counting as frontal but not flank combat. Point taken about not being able to align into the position (my bad), but no aligning was necessary as pointed out by tarnowski1.
I believe it has been validated that you can either have A1 fight supported by A2 or have B1 fight supported by B2 - but not both because they are both fighting frontally.
Again, thanks for everyone's contribution - this has cleared up a few lingering questions around here.