Transferring this from "Facebook"
I'm very disappoint seeing the changes for Samurai, going to Experienced, given "From the 15th century Heki Danjō Masatsugu revolutionized archery with his new and accurate approach called hi, kan, chū (fly, pierce, center), and his footman's archery spread rapidly, to match the mounted archery schools which had been created after the Genpi wars. Many new schools were formed, some of which, such as Heki-ryū Chikurin-ha, Heki-ryū Sekka-ha and Heki-ryū Insai-ha, remain today. This information is from ANKF. Samurai and most Japanese archers where trained to shoot in disciplined way a practice, locating and "aiming" at single target, no blacking the sky with arrows the Heki Danjō Masatsug philosophy, Powerbow and skill is very powerful combination but in Japanese warfare maybe the range should be reduced since they normally picked a target rather than area shooting 2Mu range for Mounted and 4Mu for foot. In Kyudo we do a practice based on the ancient practice called hitotsu-mato sharei, which is based on the cycling of mounted archers allowing you to load, draw, aim, fire, recover, and collect more arrow repeat, In Kyudo we do this a a slow and very controlled, but this is a method of practice which is used by modern armed forces to practice difficult manoeuvres, like the red arrows practicing they formation changed on foot and riding bikes. We also do a practice based on the foot warfare and is called Mochi-Mato Sharei.
One thing that would assist greatly with this discussion would be answers to a question that was asked at least 2 years ago (and probably 3) by RJC that unfortunately generated no responses.
The question was basically what is the evidence from battle of the effect of Japanese archery by both the samurai and their followers or ashigaru. This is rather important (IMO) as MeG is representing the effect of massed bodies of archers and not individuals, so information on what happened (to the best of our knowledge) is given significant weight when assigning classifications.
So anything that can shed light on this would be good grist to the mill.
Worth quoting Simon's recent post from Facebook:
Quote from: Simon Hall
We could have them skilled bow but I think it's dull and misses their character. I don't like that for my all time favourite troop type.
The notion instead that the skill was in being the ONLY troops in the period able to use a power bow well while mounted is a skill all of its own and gives them a special character. No other troop type in the world managed to do that. So I am reluctant to remove that.
The entire philosophy stemmed initially from development to counter the Emishi. Power bow does that nicely.
Also the penetration power of the yumi was similar to the English longbow - there was a amazing quest programme that proved it.
So skilled bow feels wrong to me on historical feel.
Skilled powerbow or experienced powerbow is the decision to me. But the philosophy of skilled bow on foot as you shoot Leslie and the only experienced mounted powerbow ever feels like it makes my favourite troop type of all time special and correct.
Yes they trained to shoot accurately at short range mainly - more commonly up to 30m from my research. Not much long range fire.
So a consideration would be mounted skilled powerbow with a short range? Or make them flexibles and skilled in SUG form which represents the more individual style. All possibilities. But I still tend to come back tk mounted powerbow and skilled or experienced as the skill is to use powerbow on a horse. So have to pick one or t'other. We've tried the first. Let's try the second.
The process has always been discussion on the list forum so no need for an appeals process as all input and debate done in advance. And we always have only a year so 'appeal' through a year and things can come into play a year later.
I don't get involved until ideas are in and then act as a safety net. So this passed by me and above thought process had me comfortable with it. Plus there was a fair bit of demoralised opponents of them in game terms. "Too powerful" was a common comment from opponents.
So post it up on the list forum and we can wield it through there. The team is always listening and thinking so nothing is cast in stone forever. One of the great things we have as a community is that we listen and adapt and are open and transparent.
Having designed an army I actually prefer them as experienced. Roughly 60 points each less and still keep the critical GREEN vs mounted while being superior. I won't miss the lack of YELLOW much.
Hope that helps and very happy to kick it around on the list forum. But can I ask we all "give it to" as I do think it's better in feel.
If those of us with the best historical knowledge end up convinced they should be skilled after all so be it we can put them back up.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 10, 2021, 08:12:07 AM
One thing that would assist greatly with this discussion would be answers to a question that was asked at least 2 years ago (and probably 3) by RJC that unfortunately generated no responses.
The question was basically what is the evidence from battle of the effect of Japanese archery by both the samurai and their followers or ashigaru. This is rather important (IMO) as MeG is representing the effect of massed bodies of archers and not individuals, so information on what happened (to the best of our knowledge) is given significant weight when assigning classifications.
So anything that can shed light on this would be good grist to the mill.
What is meant by evidence, we know that at the Battle of Torikai Gate November 1274 about equal number of Mongolians and allies where defeated by my Japanese lead by Takezaki Suenaga, and a group of reinforcement which where lead by Shairaishi Michiyasu, there is a scroll which contains images of the fighting including a picture of a group of Samurai shooting from horsedriving the Mongolians diving them away
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bun%27ei#/media/File:M%C5%8Dko_Sh%C5%ABrai_Ekotoba4.JPG. however this image is a copy of copy the original, and many parts of this conflict have been recreated to make the Japanese look more heroic, and have been used to create Noh and Kabuki plays these fictionalized. These fictionalized versions have become "facts". like the accounts of other battles in history.
There are many aspects in this discussion. First I think we must remember this is a game . The aim is to have fun and try as best as we can to have a "good feeling on how we think it happened"
Sources are not always very reliable so we must work with what we have.
First we should think on how does "skilled" impact the game ? To me it has a major impact that makes shooting much more effective and I am under the impression that if you do not have some skilled shooters in a mounted shooty army or with the early persians well they would ne be seen in a tournament because on a white dice it is pretty difficult to have a result during a limited duration tournament game.
Now what does skilled represent ? better bows, better shooters ? should we limit their numbers ?
Were the immortals really that good or was it their numbers that made the difference ? should there be english skilled powerbows ?
To answer that we should first be sure of what "skilled" means and what is the objective .
But I trust Richard, Nik and Simon to find the right balance even if we do not always agree . But what is always sure is that when there are changes, there is resistance ( even by me ) . But in the end it is just a game
Quote from: badhabum on December 11, 2021, 12:11:02 PM
There are many aspects in this discussion. First I think we must remember this is a game . The aim is to have fun and try as best as we can to have a "good feeling on how we think it happened"
Now what does skilled represent ? better bows, better shooters ? should we limit their numbers ?
W
To me Skilled is about all of the above and more, but not limit there numbers, because it "breaks" the game "
They are too Good" if they are historical good, and you down grading them destroys, because people don't like them, that destroys my love of the game. Are the Japanese Skilled in horse archery?
They practiced archery on horse and had formalised Schools from the 10th Century onwards to teach how to Shoot a bow and the other aspect which Nik mentioned was MeG is a mass battle game, the Japanese archery school teach you to shoot with others, once you understand how to release an Ya(Arrow), like I said on the Facebook post these school would teach everyone but Merchants and Gaijin (that's Foreigners, thankfully that has rule has relaxed). On my Kyudo Seminar today when we where being instructed, the Sensei said "Remember these movements are to be small and straight, to allow other to shoot, these movement come from the Bushi in time of war". Are the bows powerful one of the issues we in the west measure a bow's strength by draw weight, the Japanese would measure the strength by how many men it takes to string by 18kg at 90cm would be coincided a one man Yumi, my draw if around 98cm meaning my draw weight is around 26kg (57lbs, it has been measured with draw scales), in the 14th century Yumi's of 3 and 4 men to string where often talk about as the norm, with 5 and 6 man Yumi's. Kanjuro Shibata a Yumi maker from a family of Yumi makers going by at least 450 Years has made a Yumi based on a Yumi from from a Kyoto Temple, rated a 3 man bow, which I have had the honour drawing, that was Measured a 60Kg (132lb) and 90cm, so for me the draw weight was between 68kg and 80kg (did not measure it), and it has been mentioned in ballistic testing the Ya from a Yumi and and Arrow from a Longbow are travelling a bout the same speed at the same draw weight. The Ya (arrow) are also made by craftsmen the arrowhead where often made from steel. So the Yumi is Good, The Ya is Good, The archers where trained, not only to shoot well but with other, so that makes them Good, you pay extra points for them, and you can downgrade if you want, MeG is a historical games, based on history and the experience of History. I think I have shown evidence of that Mounted Samurai should be skilled, however the Japanese when they invaded did not seem to do as well, I think that is more to do with the Japanese court politics in both the Shogun and Imperial count, even the guard where spilt up in to two group "The House of the left and the House of the right" these group where always trying to take control and trying to rule from behind the curtain, so even when the army of Japanese invaded the armies where often split up with lower graded troops sent to invade or to maintain the invasion, while the better troops stayed at home to maintain the power base of the clan.
QuoteTo me Skilled is about all of the above and more, but not limit there numbers, because it "breaks" the game "They are too Good" if they are historical good, and you down grading them destroys, because people don't like them, that destroys my love of the game.
I did not ask to downgrade them :) but this is still a game. So a game has it's limitations and if we would go for historicity, I wonder how you would do with a small english army vs a big french army :) . You would have to play it as a scenario . A game cannot be a perfect historical reenactment exercise .
Elite units did exist but were also available in limited numbers . I have no problems with 8 mounted skilled bow TUGS in the shengoku army .