How do you resolve a situation when SuG is close to the side edge or the enemy's rear edge and an enemy TuG attempts to push it "off the table"?
Let's say this SuG doesn't want to make a run away move (and slide along the edge) or simply is in the corner without any possibility of running away?
Is it automatically destroyed or simply everybody stops when it reaches the edge (so the only way to get rid of it would be to charge it)?
I would by analogy apply the rules pg 113, I 4
The SUG would be destroyed
There is a reference to 8.3D but it seems to lead nowhere 8)
Quote from: badhabum on October 08, 2021, 03:05:28 PM
There is a reference to 8.3D but it seems to lead nowhere 8)
According to my notes, the correct reference is 9.3H.
I don't see much analogy between table edge and friendly units. ;)
Table edge is rather a kind of impassable terrain, but it still doesn't solve the case...
By the way - what happens, when SuG is about to be pushed into impassable terrain? :o
The rules need an official clarification on this topic but after a discussion with Simon at LGT this is my understanding:
You cannot push back a SuG through your own UGs (i.e. enemy UGs to the SuG being pushed back). The SuG has to be charged to destroy it.
If a SuG would be pushed back off a table edge it must take the option of running away instead. It then follows the normal rules for running away (9.3I 3.1 page 111). The same would apply for impassable terrain. In these situations, enemy SuGs can never be destroyed by being pushed back (it is not a charge) unless they run away off table. To destroy them you have to charge them.
Richard
So what happens if there is no place for the SuG to run away, e.g. when it is in the side/enemy rear corner?
(https://i.postimg.cc/JG96kmqP/push.png) (https://postimg.cc/JG96kmqP)
Following the principle Richard has mentioned in this case the SUG sits there; the TuG may move up as close as it wants but to destroy the SuG it would have to charge.
Thank you good Sirs :)
Quote from: AjojMajoj on October 09, 2021, 10:43:03 AM
So what happens if there is no place for the SuG to run away, e.g. when it is in the side/enemy rear corner?
(https://i.postimg.cc/JG96kmqP/push.png) (https://postimg.cc/JG96kmqP)
You have to charge it!
Richard
Quote from: badhabum on October 09, 2021, 01:15:46 PM
QuoteEnemy SuGs can never be destroyed by being pushed back (it is not a charge) unless they run away off table. To destroy them you have to charge them.
Yet pg 113, top of the page clearly states that if a SUG is pushed back towards a friendly TIG that it cannot pass trough for some reason the SUG is destroyed ( and there is no charge )
So interestingly enough if it meets impassable terrain, the end of the world or an enemy UG it just stops but it is destroyed if pushed trough a friendly TUG/SUG it cannot pass trough .
I would suggest its a game mechanic to prevent gamesmanship and the re-introduction of the old 'buttocks of death maneuvers' it would allow SUGs to be killed in the movement phase by deliberate manipulation of sequences. If a player manages to trap his own skirmishers in such a situation well, lets call it a learning curve ;D
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 09, 2021, 11:49:26 AM
Quote from: AjojMajoj on October 09, 2021, 10:43:03 AM
So what happens if there is no place for the SuG to run away, e.g. when it is in the side/enemy rear corner?
(https://i.postimg.cc/JG96kmqP/push.png) (https://postimg.cc/JG96kmqP)
You have to charge it!
Richard
Ok That I can understand but what about pg 113 ? should we adapt it or is it an exception that confirms the rule ?
There is no need for any changes to the rules, only the clarification.
Page 113 (9.3 I.4) only applies for pushing back SuGs into friendly UGs that the SuG cannot interpenetrate. In reality most of the time a SuG would be better off running away because they will burst through and won't be destroyed.
The clarification is that if a SuG is pushed back into a table edge or impassable terrain the SuG has to run away and follows the rules for running away.
If it is trapped and you want to destroy the SuG you will have to charge it. SuGs caught running away from TuGs due to a push back are not destroyed and the TuG has to stop just short of contact (as only SuGs caught running away from chargers are destroyed).
In my experience a player who gets their SuG trapped has only themselves to blame.
Richard
Quote from: badhabum on October 10, 2021, 09:56:31 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 09, 2021, 11:49:26 AM
Quote from: AjojMajoj on October 09, 2021, 10:43:03 AM
So what happens if there is no place for the SuG to run away, e.g. when it is in the side/enemy rear corner?
(https://i.postimg.cc/JG96kmqP/push.png) (https://postimg.cc/JG96kmqP)
You have to charge it!
Richard
Ok That I can understand but what about pg 113 ? should we adapt it or is it an exception that confirms the rule ?
Page 113 only applies to being pushed back into friendly SuGs. Doesn't apply to table edges or impassable terrain.
As You concluded in other topic:
https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1848.msg13890&fbclid=IwAR1ibfB5QFITAI_Wmo65x1DngWuIjrBVuluEPXIhMZMkpD6po7diY9LmqZU#msg13890
SuG is destroyed if it is contacted by TUG in movement phase after run away.
In situation above SUG has to be pushed (but has no more space for that) or make a run away move (and stops when touching enemy TUG, which he can't pass by universal shift in example above)
I assume it has to run away and is destroyed by gentle touch of that TuG if it move any further (and isn't 1 base close to break).
We need need to play that one way or another :)
Quote from: Thorvald on October 10, 2021, 09:27:55 PM
As You concluded in other topic:
https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1848.msg13890&fbclid=IwAR1ibfB5QFITAI_Wmo65x1DngWuIjrBVuluEPXIhMZMkpD6po7diY9LmqZU#msg13890
SuG is destroyed if it is contacted by TUG in movement phase after run away.
In situation above SUG has to be pushed (but has no more space for that) or make a run away move (and stops when touching enemy TUG, which he can't pass by universal shift in example above)
I assume it has to run away and is destroyed by gentle touch of that TuG if it move any further (and isn't 1 base close to break).
We need need to play that one way or another :)
This is why the clarification is needed. My comment was made before talking to Simon.
Richard