Bugged me for a long time now, but with the multiple Nikeforians at last weekend's Cross & Crescent comp I am finally moved to query.
What are these based on?
The nearest Armenian list - Bagratid Armenian - has nothing like them so where does the classification come from? Personally I'd expect them to be based on something from the Bagratid list unless there is other evidence.
I can find reference to Armenian Mercenaries (actually referred to as "Kappadokian") but only amongst a list of other mercenaries who were probably equipped as standard Byzantine infantry. I have no idea where the classification came from and it does seem out of place.
My inclination is to remove the line altogether.
Richard
Will this be implemented immediately or at the next revision of the lists i.e 2022.
Reason for asking, I have just purchased the figures for this TuG
It'd be a 2022 thing.
Unless anyone can tell us where it comes from in which case there may well be no change for it.
Who invented them :) ;)
I'd always thought them a little odd because they are Flexible and so provide the best rough terrain troops in the list. But there are descriptions in the manuals of the time about how to deal with rough ground and they used skirmishers and even the menavlatoi but don't mention Armenians as far as I can remember. Was it just a general assumption that Armenia is mountainous so they should be Flexible?
Bussell (The Roman empire: essays on the constitutional history from the accession of Domitian (81 A. D.) to the retirement of Nicephorus III (1081 A.D.)) states "we already know from Abulpharagius the value attached to these reinforcements of Armenian infantry during the late Syrian wars of Nicephorus". He speaks of them also in the context of a special corps of devoted troops who are guarding Zimisces in a campaign vs the Rus in Bulgaria.(I think) Earlier he mentions a bodyguard of Armenian and Iberian troops guarding one of the army commanders.
So nothing definite there as to what sort of troops they were in MEG terms other than competent infantry - but if anyone has access to Abulpharagius some sort of guidance may lie there.
Armenian soldiers were especially valued and are mentioned in Nikeforos' manual - however, this is in the context of recruits into the normal units and not their own units.
Looking at it I think the troops in the list are imaginary :P
Well I would just like to tell you that I disagree. You might tell me that you do not know why they were incorporated because you do not remember . But sorry, not knowing why is no reason just to say "sorry we scrap them" . There was perhaps a reason why those tropps do exist in that army list since 2016 . The right way to do it is to ask the guy who created the army list why he did incorporate them. There might be a reason why and not knowing the reason is no way tpo say : we do not know why so we scrap them sorry but this is my point of view .
The whole point of this topic is to find out what the rationale for them is - it was what I asked in the first post. So you're criticising us for us doing what you want us to do :o
Ok but ask first the guy who wrote the list and then you might have a correct answer . So who wrote the list ?
Quote from: badhabum on September 06, 2021, 04:39:12 PM
Ok but ask first the guy who wrote the list and then you might have a correct answer . So who wrote the list ?
Well, about five people contributed to the list. Guess what, 625 lists, over 5000 lines and people can't remember every entry that they may have contributed to...
Hence the forum post.
Richard
While the listed Formed Flexible long Spear Armenians may be proving elusive, there is some evidence at least for Armenian troops other than those enlisted in Imperial regiments.
Matthew of Edessa (Part1 -17), when talking of Tzimisces campaigns in the east circa 972/3, mentions that the Armenian King Ashot III confirmed a treaty of friendship with Tzimisces and gave him as many as 10000 troops, at the emperors request. Tzimisces then proceeds to rampage through Muslim territory. Possibly then a Bagratid Ally should be allowed, at least for this campaign, although it is unclear whether they served as an ally contingent or under Byzantine commanders. Ashot III himself wasn't present as Tzimisces writes him a letter outlining his many victories.
Ibn Zafir, describing the Byzantine forces at Hadath under Bardas Phocas, says there were 50 000 men, both infantry and cavalry, that included units of foreigners including Rus, Bulgars and Armenians. That could allow separately listed Armenians to appear, as currently happens in the list for Rus, Slavs and Frank/Normans.
I would have thought any such troops would best be represented as those troops currently in the Bagratid list.
Quote from: accard on September 07, 2021, 12:12:14 PM
Matthew of Edessa (Part1 -17), when talking of Tzimisces campaigns in the east circa 972/3, mentions that the Armenian King Ashot III confirmed a treaty of friendship with Tzimisces and gave him as many as 10000 troops, at the emperors request. Tzimisces then proceeds to rampage through Muslim territory. Possibly then a Bagratid Ally should be allowed, at least for this campaign, although it is unclear whether they served as an ally contingent or under Byzantine commanders. Ashot III himself wasn't present as Tzimisces writes him a letter outlining his many victories.
Allied contingent certainly sounds justified to me.
Quote
Ibn Zafir, describing the Byzantine forces at Hadath under Bardas Phocas, says there were 50 000 men, both infantry and cavalry, that included units of foreigners including Rus, Bulgars and Armenians. That could allow separately listed Armenians to appear, as currently happens in the list for Rus, Slavs and Frank/Normans.
Wasn't that in the period covered by the Later Thematic list? Or am I confusing it - there was probably more than one fight there.
Useful info - thanks :)
Yeah, this Hadath was AD954 so just before the Nikephoran list commences.
Please don't nerf one of my favorite units!
:-[
I would support the : do not modify it, it's been so for more than 5 years and people have bought and painted them. It should also count for something . I had them ordered especially from the USA ..