The inital situation is the following :
A TUG 3 bases wide charges another TUG, hits it on the front right base but it is not a flank charge, but everybody agrees a frontal charge.
During the movement phase, the attacking p)layer was allowed to conform along the right flank of the target SUG and it was declared a flank melee and he could just keeping deploying "in the flank " of it's target.
I objected that the charge was frontal and the answer was that yes it was an initial frontal charge but as the bases were partially on the flank, conform would be on the flank ....so ending up in a flank melee ( +2 )
This happened twice .
I cannot post pictures as the pictures are too big but I will sent them to Simon
The clarifications say "Bases may not align from a frontal contact into a flank contact (or from a rear to a side)." (p2)
I think you were right to object. Note also that the rules say that no base may move more than 2BW when aligning (which is quite possible in the scenario you describe).
Richard
What if, at the end of that charge, a file is firmly behind the flank?
Can it expand to count as a flank if no one conforms, or is it negated as the unit is forced back to the front and this a case of forced conformity (appropriate as it was Pilgrims doing it)?
E.g. on a subsequent turn?
Also interested ;)
Mind you I respected the referee's decision because he rules the tournament . I especially enjoyed facing the pilgrims crusade . i knew we could not end the game but is was so funny indeed
I was sent pictures of two examples.
In the first case, one element of unit A had contacted the side edge of unit B, but because it was not entirely behind the side edge, it is treated as a frontal contact. (I think most people understand this rule).
Because the contact is frontal, it is not allowed to align to the flank. Also because there is a rule which prevents aligning if any base would move more than 2BW, (9.5A4.1 p81), neither side would have been able to align to the front.
In the movement phase, unit A could have used an MF1 move to create a new file on the flank. Unit B could respond by using an MF2 move to turn the element contacted on the flank by 90o.
If unit B element does not turn, the new file would get a flank bonus. The original file still counts as a frontal contact.
In the second case, unit A attacks at an angle. One element contacts the front edge of unit B, the other two elements press forward contacting the flank of unit B. Assuming these elements start behind the front edge of unit A they will get the bonus for a flank attack.
Because it is both a front and flank contact, neither side can align before impact combat.
For similar reasons to above, neither side could align during the movement phase. Unit B can use an MF2 move to turn elements to negate the flank bonus.
Always remember that aligning is optional. You can never convert a frontal contact into a flank contact. It is possible to expand a frontal contact on a side edge iinto a flank contact using an MF1 move. Also you cannot align if any elements would move more than 2BW (usualy this would be because to align you would have to wheel).
My opinion is that the rules (with the clarifications on aligning) are clear, but perhaps not immediately intuitive. When I have time I will create a document with some aligning examples.
Richard
Can you post the pictures as so much easier with them.
All sounds correct but easier to be sure then.
Si
PS Will sounds like you get your umpires badge for sure. Good job mate.
Eek, that's a badge I'm not sure I deserve, but thanks.
Thanks Richard. It would not have made a difference to the game, and thankfilly the two gentlemen sorted it out mutually before i had to make a contensious decision.
I do not have your auctoritas on such matters.
Just for more precision, in the second case the charge started as a complete frontal charge. So if I understand it all neither could have conformed ( as frontal ) and all the fight would have continued as a frontal fight with no flank fight.
I know most people have not seen the pictures but for that second case I was 4 deep and my partner's charge was in an angle and he managed to hit 3 bases deep so completely on the side but started to the front, not one base being to the flank at the start of the charge.
I hope someone understands ?
Sory for the pictures but they are to voluminous for this forum
Quote from: badhabum on February 13, 2019, 05:19:21 PM
Just for more precision, in the second case the charge started as a complete frontal charge. So if I understand it all neither could have conformed ( as frontal ) and all the fight would have continued as a frontal fight with no flank fight.
I know most people have not seen the pictures but for that second case I was 4 deep and my partner's charge was in an angle and he managed to hit 3 bases deep so completely on the side but started to the front, not one base being to the flank at the start of the charge.
I
As the contacts are treated as frontal, the only alignment that would be allowed would be to the front. If the 2BW movement rule prevents aligning, then it cannot align.
QuoteIn the movement phase, unit A could have used an MF1 move to create a new file on the flank. Unit B could respond by using an MF2 move to turn the element contacted on the flank by 90o.
If unit B element does not turn, the new file would get a flank bonus. The original file still counts as a frontal contact.
Sorry to annoy you but so it is clear for everybody : it is possible in that case to create a flanking melee in that very specific case
I will have to explain it so that's why I isolated it from the rest of the discussion :)
i agree it is all somewhat confusing....a clear simple explanarion, with examples in the V2 would be welcome.
or.. use the kiss priciple, .. if at the start of the charge the charging unit is not in the flank of the target... it can never ever get in the flank of the charged unit, no matter what happens in the subsequent combat rounds
The simple answer back to intent is as follows;
1. Anything that got a flank charge bonus gets the flank bonus in melee unless enemy bases turn to face.
2. All frontal contacts thta did not get such bonuses end up as frontal fights in melee or supporting file.
3. The only ways to create a melee on a flank from a position that touches are the two examples on page 8- for entire UGs in side edge contact or in corner-to-corner only with n open flank to wheel round and wrap.
I will look at the clarry and the vs2 draft next week and tighten it up. Thanks for the useful challenges as ever.
Si
Sorry Si,
Pg 8 from the clarries ???
I'll take a look next week.
Clearly the most complex area of the rules to sort.
Will fix gradually if unclear.
Si
Next week ?
Yes next week.
When girls back at school.
Si
Ok will do without it this week-end 8)
Thanks.
A few challenges here as I have mentioned in a few places.
Will get better soon.
Best wishes
Si