If a unit which has already evaded this turn is caught later in the turn as a result of pursuit, what happens?
9.7C7 (p96). They may run away or skirmish, but may not shoot. There is no restriction on evading only once. If still caught, they fight or are destroyed as per normal rules.
Richard
Yes correct ... they just keep running.
S
Good stuff. That was the conclusion we reached as well.
I think if they have already evade the unit have to suffer a KAB
Quote from: dvorkin59 on February 16, 2019, 09:57:16 AM
I think if they have already evade the unit have to suffer a KAB
Why? If you are going to make such a statement you need to quote the rule...
Just thinking things doesn't make them true (otherwise my dice would always roll skulls!).
Richard
No such rule.
KaBs = pushed back more than move distance, TuG in SuG form hitting table edge.
"evade" as many times as needed to get away.
May of course get trapped unable to do so which is different.
Si
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 11, 2019, 07:22:12 AM
9.7C7 (p96). They may run away or skirmish, but may not shoot. There is no restriction on evading only once. If still caught, they fight or are destroyed as per normal rules.
Richard
Is this correct? p. 1 of the clarries:
HOW MANY "MOVES" per TURN
• An UG may only make a single Prompted Action, Free or Forced Charge, Run Away or Skirmish per turn with the exception of:
o MF1, MF2 moves in their Movement or Fighting Phases -‐ where you can do as you have cards for to adapt when in a fight.
o If Skirmishing or Running Away, then M2, M9 and M10 moves can be used to move forward/backwards up to 2BW to a preferred position.
• Any number of Outcome moves can be taken (i.e.involuntary moves such as routs, being pushed back etc.).
Run AZway or SK is an outcome move ...so no limit
The clarrie clearly states only 1 Run Away/Skirmish - first line that Craig posted above.
The outcome move refers to involuntary actions.
Of course for some troops a run away/skirmish may be involuntary - but as you get to choose which I guess its sort of voluntary :o
I just repeat what SI told us at IWC ;D
As opposed to using what is actually written ... :P
Point 7 on p.97 says "If any unbroken enemy are met they may Run Away or Skirmish if allowed to do so".
I'd argue that, as written, "may" means it is a voluntary move, not involuntary, and that the clarifications document means that if they've already done a Run Away or Skirmish previously in that turn they sit and cop the pursuit without any reaction.
Judging from Si's, Richard's and Badhabum's comments this is not how it is being played but it seems pretty clear in the rules.
If the unbroken ennemy is a TUG it may run away or DK . If it is a SUG it must run away or SK ( if the charger is a TUG )
I think you (we) are focusing on the wrong words, it says "if allowed to do so." The clarifications specifically state that run away and skirmish can only be done once a turn.
I had always assumed that they could only run away once but await my education if the ruling is to the contrary.
why not refer to author's intent as he expressed it ?
Why not refer to what is written in the rules and clarries - they represent the official position until they are revised. Author's posts in reply to questions can give incorrect answers/intent - just see the shooting at counterchargers topic for a recent example.
Now, Nic, there you go again actually reading the rules. No good will come of such a habit.
If my intent ever clashes with the rules and clarries I will change the rules and clarries.
So the official line is always those documents.
Quote"HOW MANY "MOVES" per TURN
· An UG may only make a single Prompted Action, Free or Forced Charge, Run Away or Skirmish per turn with the exception of :
o MF1, MF2 moves in their Movement or Fighting Phases - where you can do as you have cards for to adapt when in a fight.
o If Skirmishing or Running Away, then M2, M9 and M10 moves can be used to move forward/backwards up to 2BW to a preferred position.
· Any number of Outcome moves can be taken (i.e. involuntary moves such as routs, being pushed back etc.)."
ADD
1. All Action in the Fighting phase and EoT phase - these can always be done after making an earlier PA.
2. Troops who stopped Force charges may then make another action later in the turn.
3. Second or further enforced Run Away moves by SuGs charged by TuGs (these are in fact outcome moves as involuntary with no choice)."
So in other words :
A TUG can evade ( run away or SK ) only ONCE and if it stands in the way of anther charge and has already evaded...they will get caught
A SUG may evade more than once as it is an outcome move
OK ?
Si looks to only be mentioning SUGs here so that would follow.
He may want to say "Run Away or Skirmish" in his suggested addition and not just "Run Away" - unless, of course, it his intention that a SUG that Skirmished would be caught be a subsequent charge that reached it.
It is my understanding (standard caveat!) that:-
A SUGs first action may be "Skirmish or Run-Away" but subsequent forced actions for being "caught" are always "Run-Away"
Is that based on anything in the rules or clarries, or just the way its been played?
Asking as I haven't found anything that says that - but may have missed it.
Quote from: steads on March 07, 2019, 11:04:11 AM
It is my understanding (standard caveat!) that:-
A SUGs first action may be "Skirmish or Run-Away" but subsequent forced actions for being "caught" are always "Run-Away"
No. I don't believe that is anywhere in the rules or clarifications. I think this is pure invention.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on March 05, 2019, 08:57:52 AM
QuoteHOW MANY "MOVES" per TURN
• An UG may only make a single Prompted Action, Free or Forced Charge, Run Away or Skirmish per turn with the exception of:
o MF1, MF2 moves in their Movement or Fighting Phases -‐ where you can do as you have cards for to adapt when in a fight.
o If Skirmishing or Running Away, then M2, M9 and M10 moves can be used to move forward/backwards up to 2BW to a preferred position.
• Any number of Outcome moves can be taken (i.e.involuntary moves such as routs, being pushed back etc.).
Outcome move = anything involuntary where you have no choice. So a second Run Away is an outcome move as you have no choice about it. I could make it a bit clearer and will tidy up as part of vs 2.
Add:
"o Second or further enforced Run Away moves by SuGs charged by TuGs (these are in fact outcome moves as involuntary with no choice)."
I don't understand.
It was once clarified that you could charge, expend in melee then break off in the same turn.
When I read the clarifications I don't find any mention of the break off.
Could you pls confirm your position?
Thx in advance
Cheers
Clarrie doc has:
Quote
ADD
1. All Action in the Fighting phase and EoT phase - these can always be done after making an earlier PA [including laying caltrops or stakes].
2. Troops who stopped Force charges may then make another action later in the turn.
in the 2019 From Temporary File Until MeGII is Out section.
Cover a previous question asked about placing stakes - missed it at the time ;D
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 07, 2019, 12:44:58 PM
Quote from: steads on March 07, 2019, 11:04:11 AM
It is my understanding (standard caveat!) that:-
A SUGs first action may be "Skirmish or Run-Away" but subsequent forced actions for being "caught" are always "Run-Away"
No. I don't believe that is anywhere in the rules or clarifications. I think this is pure invention.
I was basing this on the subsequent contact being regarded as "a move causing a displacement" rather than a charge in which case 9.3 E3 would apply. So not a pure invention just a different interpretation of "Pursuit" contact. :D
QuoteIt was once clarified that you could charge, expend in melee then break off in the same turn.
Yes that is right .
Quote from: steads on March 07, 2019, 07:12:49 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 07, 2019, 12:44:58 PM
Quote from: steads on March 07, 2019, 11:04:11 AM
It is my understanding (standard caveat!) that:-
A SUGs first action may be "Skirmish or Run-Away" but subsequent forced actions for being "caught" are always "Run-Away"
No. I don't believe that is anywhere in the rules or clarifications. I think this is pure invention.
I was basing this on the subsequent contact being regarded as "a move causing a displacement" rather than a charge in which case 9.3 E3 would apply. So not a pure invention just a different interpretation of "Pursuit" contact. :D
9.3 E3 only applies in the movement phase and to SuGs being pushed back by enemy.
Apologies all .... i picked up the 2018 rather than the 2019 clarry to add to :o.
This is the full version - see latest clarry stream. So yes you can MF expand and then break off. And you can repeat run away from a charge. And you can be pushed around in movement as per 9.3 as per RJC comment. I will find a tidier way for vs2.
Second Run Aways by SuGs
"HOW MANY "MOVES" per TURN
· An UG may only make a single Prompted Action, Free or Forced Charge, Run Away or Skirmish per turn with the exception of :
o MF1, MF2 moves in their Movement or Fighting Phases - where you can do as you have cards for to adapt when in a fight.
o If Skirmishing or Running Away, then M2, M9 and M10 moves can be used to move forward/backwards up to 2BW to a preferred position.
· Any number of Outcome moves can be taken (i.e. involuntary moves such as routs, being pushed back etc.)."
ADD
1. All Action in the Fighting phase and EoT phase - these can always be done after making an earlier PA.
2. Troops who stopped Force charges may then make another action later in the turn.
3. Second or further enforced Run Away moves by SuGs charged by TuGs (these are in fact outcome moves as involuntary with no choice)."
Just to confirm - this means that only one Skirmish is allowed and all other moves have to be Run Away?
+1 I would also like to be sure
It would also appear that a SUG that is in terrain that affects/badly affects the troops charging them would not get a 2nd or subsequent run away as in this case it is optional not enforced.
Quote from: craig.w on March 08, 2019, 11:43:45 AM
Just to confirm - this means that only one Skirmish is allowed and all other moves have to be Run Away?
Indeed
Quote from: nikgaukroger on March 08, 2019, 07:27:17 PM
It would also appear that a SUG that is in terrain that affects/badly affects the troops charging them would not get a 2nd or subsequent run away as in this case it is optional not enforced.
Yes sounds correct to me.
Probably not so unhappy with that though.
Quote
Apologies all .... i picked up the 2018 rather than the 2019 clarry to add to :o.
This is the full version - see latest clarry stream. So yes you can MF expand and then break off. And you can repeat run away from a charge. And you can be pushed around in movement as per 9.3 as per RJC comment. I will find a tidier way for vs2.
Second Run Aways by SuGs
"HOW MANY "MOVES" per TURN
· An UG may only make a single Prompted Action, Free or Forced Charge, Run Away or Skirmish per turn with the exception of :
o MF1, MF2 moves in their Movement or Fighting Phases - where you can do as you have cards for to adapt when in a fight.
o If Skirmishing or Running Away, then M2, M9 and M10 moves can be used to move forward/backwards up to 2BW to a preferred position.
· Any number of Outcome moves can be taken (i.e. involuntary moves such as routs, being pushed back etc.)."
ADD
1. All Action in the Fighting phase and EoT phase - these can always be done after making an earlier PA.
2. Troops who stopped Force charges may then make another action later in the turn.
3. Second or further enforced Run Away moves by SuGs charged by TuGs (these are in fact outcome moves as involuntary with no choice)."
Ok so here is the answer from Simon.
My understanding is that you may make only ONE sk or run away move but as many enforced second run away moves as they are unvoluntary ...which to me says that the first move is prompted . Please can someone clarify this ?
I can also understand that a SK unit who must evade because it is in the open could always be considered an outcome move + what if in terrain and so evading is not compulsory, is it a prompted move or an outcome move ?
From another thread on "cantabrian" it has an impact on the evade moving distance as if prompted, the unit as a -1 MU bvut if outcome it does not suffer the -1 BW penalty !
The only difference in terrain is it a CHOICE of what option of outcome move to do.
I will rethink my use of choice as it is a bit ambiguous. Perhaps for glossary ...?
OUTCOME move = UG forced to move by the rules with no choice whether to move or not, but potentially with a choice of options for which type of outcome move to use.
But still and outcome move as no prompting (cards) necessary.
As long as a SuG has not charged itslef it can make and "evade" move and choose between Skirmish or Run Away.
If it is hit by a further charge its only option is run away. These are in the rules to simply clear out skirmishers and push them around.
You can create quite a mess with repeat ones - often drives them off table or through friends if mounted.
S
That's clear 8)