In a recent game a unit of skirmishers were shot at, resulting in a slowing marker, and subsequently pushed back that same turn. My contention - not universally accepted - was that the slowing marker comes off the skirmishers when they are pushed back. (The slowing marker reduces how far they can be pushed back without a KaB test - but this was immaterial at the time.) I thought I was correct, but the opposing player is such an authority that I am now filled with self-doubt. I couldn't cite chapter and verse for why I thought this at the time, but have since found the rules: p. 161, H6 (briefly: deduct distance from next move of any kind, including outcome moves, then remove the marker). The glossary lacks a definition for outcome moves. The rules refer to them in a really roundabout manner on p. 109, H1 (briefly: not a prompted move under your own action). The question of what an outcome move was raised and "answered" in another thread (http://"https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1484.msg11601#msg11601") by Nik, but his answer implied that outcome moves must involved passing through friends. So now I'm lead to believe that:
- Since the skirmishers weren't pushed back through friends, it's not an outcome move, and we played it correctly, but
- If the skirmishers had been pushed through friends, it would have been an outcome move, and the slowing marker would have been removed.
I'm left with the though that qualifying as an outcome move being contingent on if you pass through friends or not and the subsequent implication for removing slowing markers or not is really, um, counterintuitive? Or maybe I've just mucked up the interpretation again.
an outcomemove does not have to be passing through friends.
fleeing/skirmishing are outcome moves, passing through friends or not.
And getting pushed back... is an outcome move, regardless of being pushed through friends or not?
I am really confused by what it is you are asking!
Being pushed back does NOT remove the slowing effects of fire. The slowing effect of fire is removed at turn sequence SP 6.1 (page 161).
SuGs are pushed back by enemy, not friends.
SuGs may be displaced by friends, but that is something entirely different.
Passing through friends is again, something different.
A definition of outcome move for passing through friends (page 109) is essentially any move not undertaken as a prompted action. This could include being pushed back by enemy TuGs. Note this is purely for the purposes of passing through friends.
Richard
Slow down affects the distance you move when
- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move
Another question :
QuoteThis could include being pushed back by enemy SuGs
Can SUGs push back enemy SUGs ?
My error - I meant enemy TuGs - corrected original text.
Quote from: badhabum on June 08, 2021, 10:39:01 AM
Slow down affects the distance you move when
- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move
Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?
Indeed.
Quote from: LawrenceG on June 08, 2021, 11:43:22 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 08, 2021, 10:39:01 AM
Slow down affects the distance you move when
- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move
Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?
YES OF COURSE
Quote from: lionheartrjc on June 08, 2021, 07:46:03 AM
I am really confused by what it is you are asking!
Being pushed back does NOT remove the slowing effects of fire. The slowing effect of fire is removed at turn sequence SP 6.1 (page 161).
SuGs are pushed back by enemy, not friends.
SuGs may be displaced by friends, but that is something entirely different.
Passing through friends is again, something different.
A definition of outcome move for passing through friends (page 109) is essentially any move not undertaken as a prompted action. This could include being pushed back by enemy TuGs. Note this is purely for the purposes of passing through friends.
Richard
Well, yes I can see your confusion, as I'm pretty confused by the whole thing - especially Nik's original response about what constitutes an outcome move which implied to me that it was dependent on being pushed back through friends. I'm still confused why being pushed pack (by enemies and regardless of if that pushes you into friends or not) doesn't remove the slowing marker - assuming being pushed back by enemies is an outcome move - when p. 161 #6 states:
Quote
Whenever you get a slowing result, place a marker with your UG to record this until they move. This number of BW is then deducted from the movement distance of their next move of any type (including outcome moves), and the marker is removed once the slowing effect has been applied.
I mean, it seems pretty clear to me that it does.
Quote from: badhabum on June 08, 2021, 02:36:12 PM
Quote from: LawrenceG on June 08, 2021, 11:43:22 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 08, 2021, 10:39:01 AM
Slow down affects the distance you move when
- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move
Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?
YES OF COURSE
And pursuits as well?
Quote from: Francis Small on June 08, 2021, 04:37:09 PM
Quote from: badhabum on June 08, 2021, 02:36:12 PM
Quote from: LawrenceG on June 08, 2021, 11:43:22 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 08, 2021, 10:39:01 AM
Slow down affects the distance you move when
- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move
Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?
YES OF COURSE
And pursuits as well?
Pursuit is always your max speed but also depending on the unit being pursued ( who broke ) who rolls the dice for variable MU I see no way of slowing down the pursuers any other way
I would have thought that pursuits were outcome moves (and thus subject to the effects of slowing markers) given that a) they are not prompted moves, and b) occur in the Outcomes sub-phase.
Quote from: Francis Small on June 10, 2021, 08:07:41 PM
I would have thought that pursuits were outcome moves (and thus subject to the effects of slowing markers) given that a) they are not prompted moves, and b) occur in the Outcomes sub-phase.
I agree. Note that an S from a KaB test can introduce a slowing effect (page 171).
Also agreed. I think we often tend to ignore the S on KaBs so probably have not applied it to pursuits much - something to get right in future and get into the habit of marking them consistently ;D
OK so yes ..I was thinking why a Slowing down for the UG that pursues ..and forgot that that UG could have seen a friendly UG going pooofff
Quote from: badhabum on June 11, 2021, 07:36:24 PM
OK so yes ..I was thinking why a Slowing down for the UG that pursues ..and forgot that that UG could have seen a friendly UG going pooofff
I suppose in theory someone might inflict a slow with their "shoot and charge", then get broken in the melee.
Quote from: LawrenceG on June 12, 2021, 09:41:32 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 11, 2021, 07:36:24 PM
OK so yes ..I was thinking why a Slowing down for the UG that pursues ..and forgot that that UG could have seen a friendly UG going pooofff
I suppose in theory someone might inflict a slow with their "shoot and charge", then get broken in the melee.
When charging you can be slowed down by defensive firing or by a shoot and charge from your opponent but that would affect only the charge move distance you can do .
If you break, it comes to a variable distance roll
Quote from: badhabum on June 12, 2021, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: LawrenceG on June 12, 2021, 09:41:32 AM
Quote from: badhabum on June 11, 2021, 07:36:24 PM
OK so yes ..I was thinking why a Slowing down for the UG that pursues ..and forgot that that UG could have seen a friendly UG going pooofff
I suppose in theory someone might inflict a slow with their "shoot and charge", then get broken in the melee.
When charging you can be slowed down by defensive firing or by a shoot and charge from your opponent but that would affect only the charge move distance you can do .
If you break, it comes to a variable distance roll
Lawrence's suggestion is that you could charge in with Shoot & Charge at an opponent who is standing and in your shooting do enough to cause Slow(s) on the unit you charge - then, if you as the charger break in the same round the slows will still be there to apply to the opponents pursuit move if they have not moved.
That would be mixing 2 different rules :
Slowing effect of firing/KAB and VMD from SK/running away and breaking
Not sure it would simplify things 8)
It is what the rules require in that scenario - nothing to do with simplifying anything, just playing the rules.