Thx for clarifying 2 SUG questions :
- Can an Allied TUG also push/pull an non-allied SUG and vice versa ?
- M8 (contract stationary) Can a UG contract 'forwards' or only 'backwards':
For example, a 9 base SUG in 2 ranks (5 and 4) covering (and touching) a friendly TUG
and wanting to contract to 3x3. As the TUG prevents the SUG physically to contract 'backwards', can it be done 'forwards'? To me this seems reasonable, especially for skirmishers (not sure about drill for TUGs, if this was done forwards as well)
yeah i see your idea Ambiorix, ...but this is not "only" contracting it is also advancing.
IMHO it cannot be done
1. Yes - this was clarified. Any TuG can push any SuG.
2. Only backwards. The universal 1/2BW shift rule still applies so in your example the SuG may be able to apply that.
RJCs answer is correct for TUGs but M2 & M3 moves for SUGs can include a 2BW expansion or contraction.
It is my understanding that this cannot be done as part of a TUG pulling/pushing a SUG, as this is a "follow us order" not an application of a card directly to the SUG.
The new rulings on Block moves prove problematic with this:
For M2 the units in the block must all move the same distance so SUGs being pushed forward could not contract as they're front edge would move further than the pushing TUG. However if they were in side edge contact they could. They could expand in either case.
The solution is to put a slight wheel in to make the move an M3 (cards permitting!) because then the restriction on the same distance is removed and the SUG can expand and contract as desired.
HTH
It seems to me that I am not considered a reliable referee :-X
Quote from: lionheartrjc on June 03, 2021, 07:17:43 AM
The universal 1/2BW shift rule still applies so in your example the SuG may be able to apply that.
Hmm, not sure I understand this correctly – do you mean you can shift ½ base 'upwards' to avoid friends (I thought shifts were only sideways). If such a shift is allowed than this solves the case of course (unstucking the SUG) and I guess possible as well for the Block move described above.
Also, if an individual M2 allows a SUG contraction, than this seems a much better option than M8 (both White) as you could move the SUG ½ BW and then contract to 3x3 (even inside 4BW of enemy) – or am I missing something?
Badhabum, not sure how a clarification request renders you suddenly into an unreliable referee...
Shift half a base is on the sides 8)
Last game you asked the same question and I answered but OK you ask the question again on the forum !
As you contract you "enter" ranks who go behind the front rank as it is written on QRS. That was my answer but you still want to contract "forward" .
So for the SUG if you move and contract there is no problem and as per QRS M2 + M3 SUGs can contract but need to move and no distance limit is noted on the QRS so yes even within 1 MU of an enemy TUG it is possible.
If you want to use M8 with a SUG , you will enter the TUG that is behind you and go back ( that's my understanding ) behind that unit as if you moved trough it .
But as both moves are white why discuss just move forward and contract .
Contract is moving bases behind the frontline of the UG not to the front ;D
Quote from: badhabum on June 03, 2021, 02:48:36 PM
Shift half a base is on the sides 8)
Contract is moving bases behind the frontline of the UG not to the front ;D
this is how i understand it too, otherwise it would be a move forward half a base with contraction.
Quote from: badhabum on June 03, 2021, 02:48:36 PM
Shift half a base is on the sides 8)
I don't believe that the universal rule on 1/2 base shift specifies which direction it must be made in.
Quote
If you want to use M8 with a SUG , you will enter the TUG that is behind you and go back ( that's my understanding ) behind that unit as if you moved trough it .
A pass through for a prompted action can only occur if the UG can pass through completely - if it can't it cannot make the move. Pass through moves as an Outcome move are different and only require partial interpenetration.
Quote from: Ambiorix on June 03, 2021, 12:05:06 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on June 03, 2021, 07:17:43 AM
The universal 1/2BW shift rule still applies so in your example the SuG may be able to apply that.
Hmm, not sure I understand this correctly – do you mean you can shift ½ base 'upwards' to avoid friends (I thought shifts were only sideways). If such a shift is allowed than this solves the case of course (unstucking the SUG) and I guess possible as well for the Block move described above.
Also, if an individual M2 allows a SUG contraction, than this seems a much better option than M8 (both White) as you could move the SUG ½ BW and then contract to 3x3 (even inside 4BW of enemy) – or am I missing something?
Badhabum, not sure how a clarification request renders you suddenly into an unreliable referee...
I think I misunderstood your situation.
Quote from: steads on June 03, 2021, 08:39:20 AM
RJCs answer is correct for TUGs but M2 & M3 moves for SUGs can include a 2BW expansion or contraction.
It is my understanding that this cannot be done as part of a TUG pulling/pushing a SUG, as this is a "follow us order" not an application of a card directly to the SUG.
The new rulings on Block moves prove problematic with this:
For M2 the units in the block must all move the same distance so SUGs being pushed forward could not contract as they're front edge would move further than the pushing TUG. However if they were in side edge contact they could. They could expand in either case.
The solution is to put a slight wheel in to make the move an M3 (cards permitting!) because then the restriction on the same distance is removed and the SUG can expand and contract as desired.
HTH
I hadn't considered an M2 or M3 move because both involve advancing and the question said "contract when stationary". Stationary applies to the front edge of the UG in my opinion. An advance means moving that front edge forward.
Richard
[/quote]
I don't believe that the universal rule on 1/2 base shift specifies which direction it must be made in.
Quote
Ok, so another learning point for me - is this confirmed now that as a rule an universal 1/2 BW shift can be in any direction to avoid the obstacle ?
If you move forward or backwards, 1/2 a base will be on the left side or the right side
Quote from: nikgaukroger on June 03, 2021, 04:25:07 PM
Quote from: badhabum on June 03, 2021, 02:48:36 PM
Shift half a base is on the sides 8)
I don't believe that the universal rule on 1/2 base shift specifies which direction it must be made in.
As it seems there are different views on the direction of a shift, is there a definitive ruling yet ?
I had wondered if a shift could be in any direction, and the Universal Rule is silent on direction, but I thought that the Glossary was pretty clear on the matter:
Quote
Shift: A shunt of an UG directly sideways...
Doesn't seem much doubt to me [Note 1] that a shift can't be in any direction and is restricted to only be side-to-side movement relative to the UG shifting.
Note 1: What do they say? Sometimes wrong, never in doubt!